should i be upset with this decision?

[Kuge 0]

I had been playing at a .25/50 NLHE table for about an hour or so (This is online on poker.com), and at this point I have about $95 in chips (started out with 12.50, so yay for me). Anyways, as I am about to get up and leave the table, I am dealt JJ. UTG limps in, then MP1 bets out with $5. I am next to act, and then I begin to think of whether to call or fold. My initial reaction would be to call this, however, MP1 has about $85 in chips and is a very tight-aggressive player.The action of the table is a usually soft game, where people call most of the time, and whenever there is a raise, the standard raise for the table is the min raise of an extra 50 cents (at least preflop that is), but we get the occasional $2-$2.50 raise (mainly done by me).So this $5 bet is a huge warning sign that this guy has QQ or better, I am 100% sure of it. So then I decided the pro's and cons about calling this situation.Pros:- It Would be nice to see a flop and spike that J on the flop and see what happens.- He could just have KK and if an A didn't come on the flop, he would push hard, so I might be able to outplay if that A comes up too.Cons: - I shouldn't even be in this hand, I didn't press the "leave" button in time and now I'm stuck with a 20-80 situation, and my pot odds at this point are a little over 2:1 (remember, I only had so much time to decide, so my math is a little of).- There are still 6-7 other players who will have to act, so if I call, what if some shortstack decided to push and then the initial raiser pushes all-in, costing me $5 for a hand I didn't want to play.- JJ may have been nice in this situation, but how many times have I (or any other cash player) decides to stay in for one more hand after a big winning session, and end up in a big hand, only to lose a big chunk of the winnings. (I strongly believe that was the case here, and I wanted to try to prevent that from happening because it's happened so many times before)- At this point I started to worry about my stack, not because I don't wanna gamble and lose the money, but it is my strong belief that once you have won enough and believe you reached your peak, you should quit while you're ahead, especially with an iffy hand with a 10x BB raise before you.Because the cons outweighed the pros, I mucked. Everyone at the tabled mucked except UTG guy. So the we see the flop:J34 rainbow.UTG checks, MP1(or at this point he's LP1, meh) Bets $16 and UTG folds. MP1 shows QQ.Now this could've been a big hand for me, however, there was still the possibility that a Q would've came up on the turn on river so it was not a guarentee that I would have won the hand, but it is a strong indicator of what might have happen 90% of the time at this point. So what I'm asking you was, was my JJ a good fold at the time? Or just an unlucky move that possibly cost me $80 in extra cash? What would you guys do in this situation? Maybe I could've called the $5, but I think I was too worried about losing cash just as I was about to leave the table. Discuss, flame, argue, I'm all ears.

[GrinderMJ 0]

Don't second guess yourself in this situation one bit, you analyzed the situation, felt it was far too likely that he had qq-aa, and mucked a completely dominated hand. It's always a poor decision to CALL a 10x bb raise when you aren't sure where you are in the hand. Don't worry that you would have won a big pot, you played it correctly.

[semaj550 0]

You should be proud of yourself. You put the guy on QQ or better, mucked an inferior hand and it turns out your decision was the correct one. Yeah, spiking that J would have been sweet but you're going to lose than $5 a lot more often that you'll tend to make it up when you do hit it.Always judge the quality of your decisions by how well you make use of the information you have when you make the decision. Never judge your decisions by what happens after you make it. Seeing that Jack on the flop would not have made calling the correct play. You made a good read and stuck with it, kudos. You'll make more money in the long run by folding there than calling.

[rog 0]

You read him for a bigger pair, and he had it. You folded a hand that was a pretty big dog. nh Pokertracker says I've made 4 straight flushes where I folded preflop. I dont let that bother me.

[chrozzo 19]

nice laydown

[Suited_Up 2]

You should be proud of yourself. You put the guy on QQ or better, mucked an inferior hand and it turns out your decision was the correct one. Yeah, spiking that J would have been sweet but you're going to lose than $5 a lot more often that you'll tend to make it up when you do hit it.Always judge the quality of your decisions by how well you make use of the information you have when you make the decision. Never judge your decisions by what happens after you make it. Seeing that Jack on the flop would not have made calling the correct play. You made a good read and stuck with it, kudos. You'll make more money in the long run by folding there than calling.

That's totally wrong.You hit a set 1 in 7, am I right?You lose $5 - 6 times, which is $30.I guarantee you will win more than $30 if you catch that flop against an overpair.

[semaj550 0]

You should be proud of yourself. You put the guy on QQ or better, mucked an inferior hand and it turns out your decision was the correct one. Yeah, spiking that J would have been sweet but you're going to lose than $5 a lot more often that you'll tend to make it up when you do hit it.Always judge the quality of your decisions by how well you make use of the information you have when you make the decision. Never judge your decisions by what happens after you make it. Seeing that Jack on the flop would not have made calling the correct play. You made a good read and stuck with it, kudos. You'll make more money in the long run by folding there than calling.

That's totally wrong.You hit a set 1 in 7, am I right?You lose $5 - 6 times, which is $30.I guarantee you will win more than $30 if you catch that flop against an overpair.

To be nitpicky it's actually a little less than 1 in 8 you'll hit a set on the flop. Without knowing any cards other than your hole cards, of course. You're a little better than 1 in 8 knowing that your opponent is holding two cards that aren't a J.It's also not quite as cut and dried as your analysis. What about a 9 high or T high flop? If you suspect QQ can lose a big pot on a J high flop then JJ must be able to lose a big pot on a T high flop when the raiser holds QQ or better. Your losses will be more than just those times you don't flop a set and fold to a bet. If you are correct in putting your opponent on QQ, KK or AA you really don't have a chance to win without making a set somewhere so I wouldn't estimate your potential wins as anything more than those times you flop a set.In order to even have a resonable estimate that you will show a long run profit on this call I'd say you would have to be 100% sure you can get the guy's entire stack those times you flop a set and he doesn't. Of course, if the guy has only $20 or $30 this is always a bad call. The only reason it could even potentially show a profit is the fact that he has $85 and you have him covered. I still think it's a bad call though.

[custom36 5]

You should be proud of yourself. You put the guy on QQ or better, mucked an inferior hand and it turns out your decision was the correct one. Yeah, spiking that J would have been sweet but you're going to lose than $5 a lot more often that you'll tend to make it up when you do hit it.Always judge the quality of your decisions by how well you make use of the information you have when you make the decision. Never judge your decisions by what happens after you make it. Seeing that Jack on the flop would not have made calling the correct play. You made a good read and stuck with it, kudos. You'll make more money in the long run by folding there than calling.

That's totally wrong.You hit a set 1 in 7, am I right?You lose $5 - 6 times, which is $30.I guarantee you will win more than $30 if you catch that flop against an overpair.

I believe you hit a set 1 in 8 times.

[PimpRock 0]

I cannot believe there is only one person who thinks that was a weak move...Given everything you said, and taking into account these winnings seem to mean a lot to you, I woulda have called and been prepared to fold on any flop not containing a J. You call and miss, you lose 5 dollars out of a 80 winning session. Also, if you call, it is more likely others will follow suit giving you massive implied odds. You call and hit, you make maybe 40/50 on this hand if not considerably more. This is 50/1 people, I dont know many players at that level happy to bin an overpair.Knowing he had AA-QQ would have just made me call all the faster. I am gobsmacked everyone thinks it was a good laydown. in a tournament yes, in a cash game, no. incidentally I am quite a loose player but it is hands like this that define sessions imho.

[4Dguy 0]

Think about this:What if you DID play the hand (knowing/thinking he had QQ), flopped your J, got a bunch of money in on the flop and the turn, and then the river brought a Q. (If you can get a J, he can also get a Q). Now you are going to be mad at yourself for second-guessing your initial analysis AND you are going to be poorer.You did the right thing based on the info you had at the time. Losing money is a whole lot worse than not making money.Good analysis, good laydown :-)

[Suited_Up 2]

You should be proud of yourself. You put the guy on QQ or better, mucked an inferior hand and it turns out your decision was the correct one. Yeah, spiking that J would have been sweet but you're going to lose than $5 a lot more often that you'll tend to make it up when you do hit it.Always judge the quality of your decisions by how well you make use of the information you have when you make the decision. Never judge your decisions by what happens after you make it. Seeing that Jack on the flop would not have made calling the correct play. You made a good read and stuck with it, kudos. You'll make more money in the long run by folding there than calling.

That's totally wrong.You hit a set 1 in 7, am I right?You lose $5 - 6 times, which is $30.I guarantee you will win more than $30 if you catch that flop against an overpair.

I believe you hit a set 1 in 8 times.

Ok, I'm thinking of 7 to 1, not 1 in 7.Same idea, and it still applies with $35.

[rog 0]

It's not as simple as "hit and you take his stack". If you flop middle set, knowing he has at least an overpair, you have a 1/3 chance of losing set over set, which will cost you your stack. If more overcards come, you're pretty much screwed. I'm not a very good NL cash game player, and maybe you're right that folding is weak, but there are more post-flop scenarios than have been discussed.

[Suited_Up 2]

It's not as simple as "hit and you take his stack".  If you flop middle set, knowing he has at least an overpair, you have a 1/3 chance of losing set over set, which will cost you your stack. If more overcards come, you're pretty much screwed.   I'm not a very good NL cash game player, and maybe you're right that folding is weak, but there are more post-flop scenarios than have been discussed.

I still think it's worth a $5 risk when you're both 2 buy-ins deep.

[PimpRock 0]

Think about this:What if you DID play the hand (knowing/thinking he had QQ), flopped your J, got a bunch of money in on the flop and the turn, and then the river brought a Q. (If you can get a J, he can also get a Q).  Now you are going to be mad at yourself for second-guessing your initial analysis AND you are going to be poorer.You did the right thing based on the info you had at the time.  Losing money is a whole lot worse than not making money.Good analysis, good laydown  :-)

Please disregard what he is saying. that is HORRIBLE advice. I suppose you would lay down KK pre flop as well. If you are that concerned about the money OP then you are definately out of your league in terms of stakes. I done mean that disparigingly, but you know how important bankroll is.The only thing I have read to make me think twice is that it was 25/50 not .50/1 so the raise is like 10 times the BB. In that respect its not an automatic call but you are being presented with a solid chance of doubling up as a 90% faveourite...I dont know about the last 2 posters but I play poker to win money, not avoid losing money.

[Mercury69 3]

Basically, I think Grinder is right about not second guessing, but I also think it'sworth the $5 call to see the flop. Spkie that J and the other guy is playing cathup with much worse odds than you.

[PimpRock 0]

Don't second guess yourself in this situation one bit, you analyzed the situation, felt it was far too likely that he had qq-aa, and mucked a completely dominated hand. It's always a poor decision to CALL a 10x bb raise when you aren't sure where you are in the hand. Don't worry that you would have won a big pot, you played it correctly.

I think this is the key sentence... he did know where he was in the hand and it presented an excellent chance at doubling through. he knew what he needed in order to play a big pot.

[Naismith 0]

Here's my opinion on this.If I have a great read on someone and I *know* their cards, I'll take a flop with almost any holding. For instance, the other day I was playing and I was on the BB with QQ. UTG, a tight, tight, tight, tight, tight player made it 4xBB. Based on playing with him, I was positive I was behind. So I checked what he had behind him and it was substantial and I was sure that with a Q flop, I would take it all. The flop came down Qxx. Now, based on my read of the guy, being certain he was really strong, I just went ahead and pushed all in. It was something like 200xBB into an 8.5BB pot. He called with AA.I think these situations are too profitable and not very risky to fold. Sure, you don't want to throw away 10xBB, but you had such a flawless read on the guy, you were pretty much guaranteed his entire stack if you hit because you knew he had an overpair and you didn't have to slowplay it (which, of course, would've brought a disasterous A on the turn and killed your action ). If the flop comes down 2-7-9, be disciplined enough to trust your initial read and just muck it.For what it's worth, if I know someone has AA or KK, I'm not just calling with pairs. I'll call off a few blinds and try to flop two pair. Show that every so often and your draws become cheaper as everyone sees ghosts whenever they have AA and the flop comes down 8-5-2 ("is this guy playing 8-5 again?").Congrats on the winning session, though.

[Kuge 0]

Here's my opinion on this.If I have a great read on someone and I *know* their cards, I'll take a flop with almost any holding. For instance, the other day I was playing and I was on the BB with QQ. UTG, a tight, tight, tight, tight, tight player made it 4xBB. Based on playing with him, I was positive I was behind. So I checked what he had behind him and it was substantial and I was sure that with a Q flop, I would take it all. The flop came down Qxx. Now, based on my read of the guy, being certain he was really strong, I just went ahead and pushed all in. It was something like 200xBB into an 8.5BB pot. He called with AA.I think these situations are too profitable and not very risky to fold. Sure, you don't want to throw away 10xBB, but you had such a flawless read on the guy, you were pretty much guaranteed his entire stack if you hit because you knew he had an overpair and you didn't have to slowplay it (which, of course, would've brought a disasterous A on the turn and killed your action ). If the flop comes down 2-7-9, be disciplined enough to trust your initial read and just muck it.For what it's worth, if I know someone has AA or KK, I'm not just calling with pairs. I'll call off a few blinds and try to flop two pair. Show that every so often and your draws become cheaper as everyone sees ghosts whenever they have AA and the flop comes down 8-5-2 ("is this guy playing 8-5 again?").Congrats on the winning session, though.

You are right though, A couple of days ago I did have a good read on someone when they min-raised UTG while I was on a SB with 76os. I was pretty sure he had a high pp but with such great pot odds at the time, I decided to see a flop. flop was 762 rainbow. Initial raiser bet $4, i put him on high PP and I knew my 2 pair was good. We came down to the river without the board pairing or any face cards and I was able to get paid off big on the river when I went all-in and he called with QQ.I believe I was scared money at the time, I was too busy telling myself "just leave now and let your hour or so worth of grinding make your day, no need to try to get fancy here, you do this all the time and lose half your stack". In tournaments I would instantly call in that situation, I dunno I'm wierd I guess...or a donk, which ever you perfer. Thanks with the feedback.

[cguyton 0]

The difference between professional or very good players and weak players is the ability to lay down BIG hands. imo - Laying down big pocket pairs is diffucult on any hand.The fact you read that the opponent had you beat preflop and you sounded certain of that makes this play a good lay down. Regardless of the J that spiked. You played the hand very well with the info you had gathered. imo

[asandu 0]

horrible fold. Implied odds are well worth the $5 investment.

[Naismith 0]

horrible fold. Implied odds are well worth the $5 investment.

Well, that depends on your ability to fold on a board of all unders. If one can't, the implied odds of losing your entire stack are pretty solid.

[nritchi3 0]

Just from reading this thread unless we have a lot of people who are playing 2/5 NL+ here then some people are getting ahead of themselves. Ok so maybe you can laydown JJ preflop to a 10x BB raise but the guy who talks about how he made an amazing play with QQ knowing 100% he was beat preflop when the guy makes a 4xbb raise. You seriously have to be kidding me. I don't think there is any players in the world who are so tight that the only two hands that they make a standard preflop raise with are AA and KK. Yes in this situation you were right but are you trying to tell me he couldn't have had AK AQ JJ TT. As for the guy with JJ normally i would probably see the flop in this situation just because someone raises this much doesn't mean he has a huge hand. The only thing it truely indicates his he doesn't know how to play poker properly however if you had a really good read on this player then i can understand your decision.

[BigEasy6 0]

You should have seen the flop. You let your run of success at that table cloud your judgement. Your judgment was sound, but it should have pushed you in the other direction. I can't add more than suited or the guy above me other than don't be afraid of the monsters under the bed.

[Shizzmoney 0]

I woulda have called and been prepared to fold on any flop not containing a J.

I agree with this, especially since you made a terrific read preflop on him having a bigger pair. Now, yes, you are a 4 1/2 to 1 underdog in the hand, but let's weigh other pros about calling here:1) Your read. It's absolutely fantastic, and it gives you INCREDIBLE leverage going into the hand. As Harrington says, poker is a partial information game, and the more information you acquire about your opponenents allows you to make better decisions at the poker table. Even though you know you're behind, the mere fact you know what is in his hand benefits you and you have a better chance to profit off of it, because he probably has a marginal clue about what you have.2)The potential benefit of position. Even though you are MP2, 6-7 times out of 10 you'll be able to get the "inherited button", so you'll have position. If you are raised behind, yes..... you will lose your 5 dollars......but at least you will know that you are up against AA or KK and will fold and won't be confused about it. I think the worst part about players playing JJ is that when they do play it, they have no idea where they are at in the hand. You do, big plus.3) Implied odds. It's not like this guy has 20 dollars left in his roll (in which case it is an easy fold), he has 85. You have him covered, and you are betting 5 to potentially win 85 total. He is also tight aggressive, so you know that he is going to bet big on any flop that doesn't have an A or K in it, and even more if there are two to a straight or two to a flush. To me, that's fantastic odds, especially since I know what he has in his hand and that he might potentially jam a J high flop because he might put me on AJs or something to that effect. Now there is no guaruntee that you will get all his money the moment he is raised; he might smell a rat....but you'll get at least 2 pot sized bets at best. And since you know this......

There was still the possibility that a Q would've came up on the turn on river so it was not a guarentee that I would have won the hand, but it is a strong indicator of what might have happen 90% of the time at this point.

...........you can just smooth call the flop and turn (especially if there are two to a flush or straight on the board, and I would CALL QUICKLY, feigning that I was chasing something). If no Q hits, you'll know you have the best hand. If no flush, straight, or even no A or K hit (and he probably won't put you down as an Ace chaser) - you'll probably get the rest of his chips. Also, UTG calls, and he most likely will be dead money in the pot, maybe even more money if he hits bottom or middle set. I love dead money!The only thing that sucks about the last part is that its the internet, and you haven't played with this fellow before I assume, so you don't know if he is the type to overplay and jam an overpair to the board, or if he is a good enough player to lay it down to a re-raise or to smell something fishy with smooth calls.Either way, I will commend you on a fantastic read and a good laydown as well (this tool will serve you well much more in tournaments, where chips are more precious). You will only hit your set 1 out of 8 times, so hindsight is 20/20. And you were already satisfied with your session, so you don't want to be in a hand you are uncomfortable in - very understandable and it is very solid poker. But the beauty of poker is the fact there are different ways to play the game, and coming from my personal view, even though I don't have the best of it, at least I would know that I didn't. Ya, ya...... "you leave yourself at the mercy of the deck", but sometimes the risk is often why we play the game, especially since we already know the reward. In cash games, I like to gamble a bit more just because of the immediate monetary benefits and the fact that people overplay top/over pair so much in NLHE today.But that's my personal playing style, and that is what has made me successful and why I think makes poker fun.

[Petoria 0]

I call 100% of the time, and here's why.You already know what your opponent has, and he has a DEEP stack, if you dont hit, then you fold, simple as that. -$5. So you're getting 15-1 implied odds, and many people who raise that big preflop tend to be stuck on their hands, unwilling to give them up.Since you KNOW your opponent is sitting there with a big overpair, you either flop or fold. Also worth noting is the fact that I'm going to call with any PP 5's or greater. If I can narrow him down to QQ, KK, or AA, then I might even call with 2's, 3's, or 4's. NL cash games at the 1/2 level (that's all I've gotten up to) and lower are all about implied odds. Do you understand why calling a raise when you KNOW you're behind is a correct play sometimes, especially when you can nail his range down to a few hands?I think folding JJ is a BIG mistake.