borgata dn vs dw

[slappywhite 0]

hellmuth's record.....hasn't won a non-invitational since 2003....hasn't won an event 5 k or greater since 2001...hasn't won a us event w 5k or grater buy in since 1993...hasn't won a us event with 10 k buy in or better since his title in 1989.....quoted from 2 plus 2 .....really no success in non invitational tourneys

[Loismustdie 0]

I just watched the WPT Seaons 3 Borgata tournament with Daniel, Arieh, David Williams, and Phil Ivey at the final table. When they got to heads up, is it just me or was Daniel really getting it handed to him, mostly because of a bad run of cards, until he flopped the trip 2s to David's QQ, with Negreanu down 5mil to 1mil it doubled him up to 2.2mil to David's 3.8 mil. After that DW kind of self destructed, especially with the all-in bet with Q7 where Daniel had basically pot commited himself with KK. That gave DN the chip lead and he never looked back. I give mad props to Daniel for weathering his cold streak at the beginning of heads up, and coming back strong to win a few key pots that turned the tide. One of the differences that separates the elite, such as DN, from that second tier of good players, such as DW and Phil Hel., is the ability to keep their composure after a few bad beats, which is not what David did after losing to that A2.

This is the most horrendously atrocious statement ever. Phil Hellmuth is in the upper tier of elite NL tourney players...bottom line. Sure, Hellmuth b*tches a lot, but it doesn't affect his play as much as people think. Hellmuth is one of the very best NL tourney players in the world, IF not the very best. When will people learn......

No he isn't. Not even close.

[pete_95973 0]

I just watched the WPT Seaons 3 Borgata tournament with Daniel, Arieh, David Williams, and Phil Ivey at the final table. When they got to heads up, is it just me or was Daniel really getting it handed to him, mostly because of a bad run of cards, until he flopped the trip 2s to David's QQ, with Negreanu down 5mil to 1mil it doubled him up to 2.2mil to David's 3.8 mil. After that DW kind of self destructed, especially with the all-in bet with Q7 where Daniel had basically pot commited himself with KK. That gave DN the chip lead and he never looked back. I give mad props to Daniel for weathering his cold streak at the beginning of heads up, and coming back strong to win a few key pots that turned the tide. One of the differences that separates the elite, such as DN, from that second tier of good players, such as DW and Phil Hel., is the ability to keep their composure after a few bad beats, which is not what David did after losing to that A2.

This is the most horrendously atrocious statement ever. Phil Hellmuth is in the upper tier of elite NL tourney players...bottom line. Sure, Hellmuth b*tches a lot, but it doesn't affect his play as much as people think. Hellmuth is one of the very best NL tourney players in the world, IF not the very best. When will people learn......

You are dead wrong. Phil was a pretty good player in the 80's and 90's when he cared, but there is simply no chance that he is among the top 20 NLH tournament players today. Off the top of my head, here are a few guys that would crush him:1. Me2. Phil Ivey3. John Juanda4. The Grinder5. Allen Cunningham6. Michael Grac7. David Benyamine8. Doyle Brunson9. Todd Brunson10.Gus Hansen11. Erick Lindgren12.Joe Cassidy13. Erik Sagstrom14. Johnny Chan15. John D'Agostino16. Carlos Mortensen17. Prahlad Friedman18. Farzad Bonyadi19. Dan Harrington20. Ted Forrest These are totally off the top of my head, yet each and every one of them is a bigger threat in the WPT and WSOP Circuit events than Phil.

Daniel, just curious, does Ferguson not belong in this group or was it an oversight?

[ksean9999 0]

Daniel, as well as most of the posters, are saying Hellmuth is no longer a top 20NL tournament player, not that he "once was a great player". There is no disputing that.He won the NBC Heads Up championship, but he didn't beat the WHOLE field. In fact, he only beat 6 people and didn't play the other 58. If you watched a couple of the matches, such as the third round vs Huck Seed, the match could have easily gone either way. Granted it didn't, but results alone do not speak volumes about how good a player is. How many tournaments have Chip Reese and Johnny Chan won recently? Are they worse NL players than Hellmuth because they don't have great tournament "results" the past couple years. Only Daniel and other pros will really know how well Hellmuth has been playing the past year or two, and from what most of them have said, he no longer has the skills in NL Hold'Em that he used to.

johnny chan won a wsop bracelet last year against a large field and has won 3 wsop in the last 3 years (2 in 2003 i believe). who else has won 3 bracelets in the last 3 years?i'm not sure off the top of my head but the list is short if it exists at all.not bad for a guy who hasn't won lately - and he's not playing nearly as many events as guys like ferguson et al.

[iggymcfly 0]

Hey Koop, I want to know you totally dismiss Phil's cash game results and then point to the Heads-Up Championship like it's the bastion of credibility. Large-field multi-table tournaments are much more similar to cash games than they are to heads-up matches. Tournaments are basically like cash games with one dimension added (stack size/elimination considerations). Heads-up not only misses that dimension, (you should always just be looking for the +EV move when heads-up), it also misses a lot of skills that cash games and tournies have in common. The only reason that Daniel even brought up High Stakes Poker, is because it's the only show that gives us in-depth coverage of what the pros do when they have reasonably large stacks which is the heart of both cash game and tournament poker. Since we're not there (like Daniel is), this is the only chance we'd get to see those kinds of decisions without actually flying out to a WPT event.EDIT: Oops, didn't realize that this thread was from February until just now. I accidentally linked from the bracelet thread thinking it was the next page of the same topic.

[Steamed Rice 0]

funny how a thread about borgata DN vs the porn star turned into a huge thread about phil hellmuthhe must have a huge effect on poker btw daniel, wheres jerry?...i think koop is right here, hellmuth may be a donk now, and he MAY even be outclassed to the current fields, but you cant argue against what hes done in poker

[steve7stud 0]

It's strange that I never responded to this thread, but I will now. Gracz and Cassidy have a ridiculous amount of talent. In fact I would pick Cassidy as a favorite over Hellmuth heads up. Gracz I really don't know. I actually like Phil a lot. I also believe that he is a world class no limit player. But I do question whether or not he has "adapted" his game. Having said that, there is one HUGE difference between Daniel and Phil Hellmuth. Daniel doesn't make deals and Phil does. I'm not taking anything away from the man, not for one second, nor could I. His ego would reach across the screen and delete a sentence, lol. But facts are facts. Daniel = No Deals Ever. Phil = Deals When He Feels He Can Get The Best Of It. You must factor that in when looking at results.

[Steamed Rice 0]

wow didnt realize till now that this thread was from a while backah well, its still a good topic