borgata dn vs dw

[Vatche 0]

Varkony pwns Daniel and Helmuth... :twisted: *****THREAD OVER!***** :twisted:

[alf13 0]

According to the Hendon Mob site...he had a very good 2003...he sucked in 2004...and had a decent 2005....

[gilbertology 0]

yes Herdon Mob this, Herndon Mob that, but do these results really tell us about how good the player played during the year. I mean cmon, if you've watching Phil over the past five years you know he's nowhere close to the elite group of poker pros.

[GaryMorris 0]

I just watched the WPT Seaons 3 Borgata tournament with Daniel, Arieh, David Williams, and Phil Ivey at the final table. When they got to heads up, is it just me or was Daniel really getting it handed to him, mostly because of a bad run of cards, until he flopped the trip 2s to David's QQ, with Negreanu down 5mil to 1mil it doubled him up to 2.2mil to David's 3.8 mil. After that DW kind of self destructed, especially with the all-in bet with Q7 where Daniel had basically pot commited himself with KK. That gave DN the chip lead and he never looked back. I give mad props to Daniel for weathering his cold streak at the beginning of heads up, and coming back strong to win a few key pots that turned the tide. One of the differences that separates the elite, such as DN, from that second tier of good players, such as DW and Phil Hel., is the ability to keep their composure after a few bad beats, which is not what David did after losing to that A2.

This is the most horrendously atrocious statement ever. Phil Hellmuth is in the upper tier of elite NL tourney players...bottom line. Sure, Hellmuth b*tches a lot, but it doesn't affect his play as much as people think. Hellmuth is one of the very best NL tourney players in the world, IF not the very best. When will people learn......

You are dead wrong. Phil was a pretty good player in the 80's and 90's when he cared, but there is simply no chance that he is among the top 20 NLH tournament players today. Off the top of my head, here are a few guys that would crush him:1. Me2. Phil Ivey3. John Juanda4. The Grinder5. Allen Cunningham6. Michael Grac7. David Benyamine8. Doyle Brunson9. Todd Brunson10.Gus Hansen11. Erick Lindgren12.Joe Cassidy13. Erik Sagstrom14. Johnny Chan15. John D'Agostino16. Carlos Mortensen17. Prahlad Friedman18. Farzad Bonyadi19. Dan Harrington20. Ted Forrest These are totally off the top of my head, yet each and every one of them is a bigger threat in the WPT and WSOP Circuit events than Phil.

What, no Mike the Mouth? Come on now!

[alf13 0]

yes Herdon Mob this, Herndon Mob that, but do these results really tell us about how good the player played during the year. I mean cmon, if you've watching Phil over the past five years you know he's nowhere close to the elite group of poker pros.

Results are results. He has good ones in 2003 and 2005. Period. WTF you want me to say? I couldn't care less if he played like a total idiot. His results are good in those two years.

[gilbertology 0]

Ah....silence. I see my response has elicited no response from gilbert......who was so quick to jump all over my previous post...Ouch.

Ouch... is what you were saying after our friendly HUs match. Pwned, sorry I had to say it just one time.

[rbilotta 0]

You are dead wrong. Phil was a pretty good player in the 80's and 90's when he cared, but there is simply no chance that he is among the top 20 NLH tournament players today. ff the top of my head, here are a few guys that would crush him:I think Daniel is right. It does not seem to me that Phil cares as much since poker really took off. I think he makes good money and has a great time now being a celebrity. He hardly plays that many tournaments. This is my opinion, but I was watching the 2003 WSOP Main Event, which sort of was the tipping point of poker craze and Phil seemed to play with more fire. Now he seems to play a weak tight approach and just bitches when he loses.

[KowboyKoop 0]

Ah....silence. I see my response has elicited no response from gilbert......who was so quick to jump all over my previous post...Ouch.

Ouch... is what you were saying after our friendly HUs match. Pwned, sorry I had to say it just one time.

Heads up matches??? What????

[KowboyKoop 0]

Money won in tournaments:2002:Hellmuth-$239,373Negreanu-$499,284 2003:Hellmuth-$1, 160,832 (this includes a Omaha Hi/Lo WIN at the L.A. Poker Classic, a WSOP bracelet in LIMIT HOLDEM, a WSOP final table in LIMIT OMAHA, a WSOP bracelet in NO LIMIT HOLDEM, a final table in POT LIMIT OMAHA, a final table at the U.S Poker Championship, and a final table at a WPT event)Negreanu-$512,880 (this includes a WIN at a Pot Limit Omaha event ($500), a WSOP Pot Limit Holdem final table, a a WSOP bracelet in S.H.O.E, a 2nd at the WSOP $3,000 NO LIMIT event...where he lost to???? That's right..Phil Hellmuth. And three other holdem final tables.)2004: Hellmuth-$96,411 (clearly, Hellmuth had a pretty bad year, combined with not playing as much.)Negreanu-$4,465,907 (obviously, DN had an incredible year and I'm not gonna list all the final tables, but clearly DN had a much much better year than Hellmuth)2005: Hellmuth-$845,810 (this includes winning the Heads Up Championship, 2 cashes and 1 final table at WSOP PL Omaha events, and 3rd at the TOC. Negreanu-$532,312 (this includes three final tables in NLHE events)So...Hellmuth had much better years in '03 and '05, and DN had much better years in '02 and '04. If DN wants to think that he personally is better than Hellmuth, than that is fine b/c that is his opinion and isn't really important to me, but I have a hard time seeing how he is a "monster loser" in tourney poker since 2002...I mean seriously he has had pretty good years two of the past FOUR years...and who is to say that Hellmuth wasn't just running real bad those two years that he had real bad years. I love it how when Hellmuth had a bad run, everyone says that he is not that good anymore, but when DN doesn't have a great year, everyone is so quick to just say "oh, he's running bad." Give me a break, Hellmuth is one of the very best NLHE tourney players in the world, and that is that. Also, I like how DN says that Phil Hellmuth didn't "place" in any TV events in 2004 or 2005.....despite winning the Heads Up Championship WHICH WAS ON TV and final tabling the TOC WHICH WAS ON TV and even before that he got 2nd in the original TOC (better than DN) which was on TV and he final tabled the PL Omaha event at the WSOP..which was on TV. I'm not sure if DN is thinking right in this thread...it seems to me that he just doesn't really like Hellmuth that much, which is fine, but what he is saying doesn't seem to be very accurate. Hard to believe that someone making 2.5 million + over the past four years is a "monster loser" in those tournaments when even DN admits THAT HE DOESN'T PLAY NEARLY AS MUCH AS MOST TOP PROS!!! Thus, he plays less tournaments, meaning he pays less buy-ins...think about it people, how would be be a "monster loser?" Also, what if he did play as many events?? Maybe his numbers would be a lot bigger?? Bottom line, when he plays in NLHE tournaments, he is one of the very best there.

[KowboyKoop 0]

Also..DN puts Prahald Friedman on his list of players that would "crush" Phil Hellmuth in NL tourney poker....I think this instantly discredits the list....can I please get some info on why he is so much better??? Because by looking at his results over the past four years..they are nowhere CLOSE to what Hellmuth has done.....not even close. I think DN is going a little too much off of who he "likes" instead of looking at this objectively.

[_Great_Dane_ 0]

Varkonyi pwns Daniel and Helmuth...

Which one?

[SportsW234 0]

While I highly respect Daniel's view of Hellmuth and his NLH skills he's wrong about a couple things.In 2003 Phil won over a million playing tournament poker. Now I don't how much he kept due to possible backers and all, but in 2003 a million in tournament poker was a lot. In 2003 he won three tournaments including two WSOP bracelets. 2004 was a down year, but 2005 he made nearly a million in a limited schedule. http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/rank.php?a=r&n=136I firmly do believe that there are at least 10 maybe even 20 better no limit players than Phil, but some of the names are still young and still could fade away. I think its a little early to put Gracz, Friedman, Sagstrom, and Cassidy as better no limit players. While there's no doubt all four are talented players, especially on the internet, what they have done in tournament poker in the last two years have not firmly convince there better NLH players than Hellmuth, yet. Also Johnny Chan has no WPT or WSOP circuit event final tables.I still believe if Phil adjust his game and focus instead of hanging out with star athletes. However, Phil seems too stubborn or big-headed to ever fully adjust or change his style which seems too passive.

[Suited_Up 2]

While I highly respect Daniel's view of Hellmuth and his NLH skills he's wrong about a couple things.In 2003 Phil won over a million playing tournament poker. Now I don't how much he kept due to possible backers and all, but in 2003 a million in tournament poker was a lot. In 2003 he won three tournaments including two WSOP bracelets. 2004 was a down year, but 2005 he made nearly a million in a limited schedule. http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/rank.php?a=r&n=136I firmly do believe that there are at least 10 maybe even 20 better no limit players than Phil, but some of the names are still young and still could fade away. I think its a little early to put Gracz, Friedman, Sagstrom, and Cassidy as better no limit players. While there's no doubt all four are talented players, especially on the internet, what they have done in tournament poker in the last two years have not firmly convince there better NLH players than Hellmuth, yet. Also Johnny Chan has no WPT or WSOP circuit event final tables.I still believe if Phil adjust his game and focus instead of hanging out with star athletes. However, Phil seems too stubborn or big-headed to ever fully adjust or change his style which seems too passive.

Lets not say things we can't take back...Gracz and Cassidy are monsters.

[the_charleroi_ki 0]

until daniel accomplishes all the things phil has there should be no question who is better. Just for the record daniel you actually are one of my favorite players

[FishtankHank 0]

This thread went from something about Daniel to a neverending argument about who is better Phil Helmuth or Daniel Negreanu and then it went to who had better results in 2002-2005 Phil or Daniel and then when it was discovered that Daniel overall had better results than phil in those years the phil backers decided to create a new argument about whether Phil was successful or not during those years. I love it, keep it going!

[Demonde 0]

hahahait would complete kowboykoop to get into an argument with daniel...you can see he's trying...GL..

[profxavier9 0]

Id say danny's list is about right to me, but what do I know? Aswell as 90% of the people here voicing there opinions. You don't know shit until you've played with them and im sure less 1% of you have. I think alot of people spend wayyy to much time worrying about pros and who is better then who. When in the end its the turn of a card to decide who wins what. Worry about poker...sound like a good idea?

[KowboyKoop 0]

This thread went from something about Daniel to a neverending argument about who is better Phil Helmuth or Daniel Negreanu and then it went to who had better results in 2002-2005 Phil or Daniel and then when it was discovered that Daniel overall had better results than phil in those years the phil backers decided to create a new argument about whether Phil was successful or not during those years. I love it, keep it going!

What??? All I was saying is that it is wrong to say that Phil Hellmuth is not in the upper tier of NL tourney players and then I showed results which proved that Hellmuth has had pretty good results over the past four years...which countered DN's point saying that Hellmuth was a "monster loser" in tourney poker since 2002. I haven't said a word as to whether Hellmuth was a better player than DN. I don't care about that, I am just saying that Hellmuth is one of the very best NL tourney players and I proved it.

[KowboyKoop 0]

Id say danny's list is about right to me, but what do I know? Aswell as 90% of the people here voicing there opinions. You don't know censored until you've played with them and im sure less 1% of you have. I think alot of people spend wayyy to much time worrying about pros and who is better then who. When in the end its the turn of a card to decide who wins what. Worry about poker...sound like a good idea?

All I am going by is RESULTS. That is what poker is about. Results and making money. I showed that Hellmuth has been successful in that over the past four years in addition to the rest of his career. Noone is talking about their playing styles or our opinions...Hellmuth's results are better than just about everybody's, thus he is better. Fact.

[antethief 0]

until daniel accomplishes all the things phil has there should be no question who is better

Such as?

[Vatche 0]

until daniel accomplishes all the things phil has there should be no question who is better

Such as?

im a huge Negreanu fan and a huge Hellmuth fan...Hellmuth hasnt made adjustments and still plays NL like its 1989, so he might not be in the top 20...(right now)But the guy is a World Champion, and no one can take that away from him.

[jayboogie 0]

Hellmuth actually has changed his game a lot believe it or not. He used to be the player who was always raising, being aggressive and taking control of the table. He has changed his style into a weak tight player for whatever reason and as a result gets run over and robbed blind.

[gilbertology 0]

Hellmuth actually has changed his game a lot believe it or not. He used to be the player who was always raising, being aggressive and taking control of the table. He has changed his style into a weak tight player for whatever reason and as a result gets run over and robbed blind.

*2

[KowboyKoop 0]

Money won in tournaments:2002:Hellmuth-$239,373Negreanu-$499,284 2003:Hellmuth-$1, 160,832 (this includes a Omaha Hi/Lo WIN at the L.A. Poker Classic, a WSOP bracelet in LIMIT HOLDEM, a WSOP final table in LIMIT OMAHA, a WSOP bracelet in NO LIMIT HOLDEM, a final table in POT LIMIT OMAHA, a final table at the U.S Poker Championship, and a final table at a WPT event)Negreanu-$512,880 (this includes a WIN at a Pot Limit Omaha event ($500), a WSOP Pot Limit Holdem final table, a a WSOP bracelet in S.H.O.E, a 2nd at the WSOP $3,000 NO LIMIT event...where he lost to???? That's right..Phil Hellmuth. And three other holdem final tables.)2004: Hellmuth-$96,411 (clearly, Hellmuth had a pretty bad year, combined with not playing as much.)Negreanu-$4,465,907 (obviously, DN had an incredible year and I'm not gonna list all the final tables, but clearly DN had a much much better year than Hellmuth)2005: Hellmuth-$845,810 (this includes winning the Heads Up Championship, 2 cashes and 1 final table at WSOP PL Omaha events, and 3rd at the TOC. Negreanu-$532,312 (this includes three final tables in NLHE events)So...Hellmuth had much better years in '03 and '05, and DN had much better years in '02 and '04. If DN wants to think that he personally is better than Hellmuth, than that is fine b/c that is his opinion and isn't really important to me, but I have a hard time seeing how he is a "monster loser" in tourney poker since 2002...I mean seriously he has had pretty good years two of the past FOUR years...and who is to say that Hellmuth wasn't just running real bad those two years that he had real bad years. I love it how when Hellmuth had a bad run, everyone says that he is not that good anymore, but when DN doesn't have a great year, everyone is so quick to just say "oh, he's running bad." Give me a break, Hellmuth is one of the very best NLHE tourney players in the world, and that is that. Also, I like how DN says that Phil Hellmuth didn't "place" in any TV events in 2004 or 2005.....despite winning the Heads Up Championship WHICH WAS ON TV and final tabling the TOC WHICH WAS ON TV and even before that he got 2nd in the original TOC (better than DN) which was on TV and he final tabled the PL Omaha event at the WSOP..which was on TV. I'm not sure if DN is thinking right in this thread...it seems to me that he just doesn't really like Hellmuth that much, which is fine, but what he is saying doesn't seem to be very accurate. Hard to believe that someone making 2.5 million + over the past four years is a "monster loser" in those tournaments when even DN admits THAT HE DOESN'T PLAY NEARLY AS MUCH AS MOST TOP PROS!!! Thus, he plays less tournaments, meaning he pays less buy-ins...think about it people, how would be be a "monster loser?" Also, what if he did play as many events?? Maybe his numbers would be a lot bigger?? Bottom line, when he plays in NLHE tournaments, he is one of the very best there.

No response to this..gilbert???? How do these RESULTS show that Hellmuth is not a top tier tourney player..but DN is??? I'm waiting to see how you claim that these numbers show that Hellmuth is a "monster loser" in tourney poker.

[CieloAzor 0]

Also, I like how DN says that Phil Hellmuth didn't "place" in any TV events in 2004 or 2005.....despite winning the Heads Up Championship WHICH WAS ON TV and final tabling the TOC WHICH WAS ON TV and even before that he got 2nd in the original TOC (better than DN) which was on TV and he final tabled the PL Omaha event at the WSOP..which was on TV.

I believe you have a point about the PL Omaha final table, which I assume Negreanu forgot about. The others don't count because Daniel specifically said OPEN events, and the events you listed were all invite only. Even worse, Phil didn't earn his invite to the most recent TOC. He was unfairly added into the tournament to boost ratings.