thespoil 0 Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 Poker Room skinLimit Holdem Ring gameBB is LAP, no read on MP3, what's my river play?Limit: $1/$210 playersConverterPre-flop: (10 players) Hero is CO with J:spade:J:diamond:3 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero raises, BB calls, MP3 calls.Flop: 2:club: 4:diamond: 2:spade: (13.5SB, 3 players)BB checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP3 calls.Turn: 8:spade: (8.25BB, 3 players)BB checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP3 calls.River: 4:spade: (11.25BB, 3 players)BB checks, MP3 checks, Hero... Link to post Share on other sites
AlphaOmega 0 Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 You think one of them has a 4 or a 2?MP3 limped pre-flop, and unless he is a complete donkey that generally excludes hands containing a 2, and most of the time a 4, in them.If BB is three-betting A4 or A2, then you will have all of his money soon, though I'd also say that that scenario is unlikely.The only real hand you should worry about is a made flush that just hit. Since it would have been a backdoor flush, and thus less likely, I think a lot of value can come from a bet because we get calls from a lot of the villains' range. Mid pocket pairs, ace high, etc. Link to post Share on other sites
Abbaddabba 0 Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 If they're predictable and passive-ish players, i'll bet and fold to a checkraise.You're getting called by ace here an ass load of times. Whenever the board is paired twice, you get tons of calls from ace high. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 my concern is QQ/KK calling us down.we capped, why are they calling?I check behindi'm a SLAP Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Zach6668 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 my concern is QQ/KK calling us down.we capped, why are they calling?I check behindi'm a SLAPMost villains will call down with anything from 55-TT here as well, unless you can specifically put him as being incredibly passive and slowing down with KK at this point, then maybe check, but I'll bet this for value every time, and then thank the lord I lost the minimum when he shows KK.Zach Link to post Share on other sites
RISEorFall 0 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 my concern is QQ/KK calling us down.we capped, why are they calling?I check behindi'm a SLAPI agree, but MP3's more than likely dead money makes me wanna bet this too. Am I the only one who doesn't cap JJ preflop? Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 In pos against 2 others, one dead money it appears, capping JJ looks good to me. But I don't usually do it. Not sure.Zach, I'm likely giving villans way too much credit, but our cap and their calling the drawless flop, makes me think they are very passive and BB could be playing WA/WB. I just don't think we get called enough by AK/AQ here, to offset the few times we are beat by KK/QQ or c/r'd by a bdfd.again, I'm probably wrong, it's just my passive nature.I do find when I bet these on the end, usually they just fold.Getting a read is pretty sweet too. Link to post Share on other sites
Breaking Liberty 0 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Getting value from this people calling with 55s-10's, a pair of 8's and ace highs is also nice. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Zach6668 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Ok, say for the sake of this discussion, the villain will 3-bet the hands we usually will, as in 77+ (maybe too low), AK, AQ.We cap, would would cap anything like TT to AA, AK here...So, flop is 4 high. You will never fold another PP. Ever. Usual fish passiveness states that they will just call and hope, with say TT. QQ or KK should raise, but won't necessarily. I would raise almost any PP in this situation, but most villains aren't that strong.Turn comes an 8. There's little chance that this connected with a hand, but if someone had 88, you'll hear from them on the turn, usually. They will also not think that the 8 helped you, as they will invariably put you on overcards... try thinking like a fish.River double pairs the board, and they look down at their AQ and say that A high is good here, and they want to protect against your AK or AJ etc and don't want you stealing the pot... so they call the river. Furthermore, they will obviously call with anything like 55 to AA here. And given the way they played the hand, there is VERY little chance that they will raise you here.If they bet this river, are you calling? If so, I think a bet is quite necessary.You will get calls from 55-TT, any 8, and QUITE often AK, AQ, and even another wide variety of crap that a retard will 3-bet with... as I've seen 3-bets from as low as A5, and they will of course call this river.The only hands he calls with that beat us are QQ, KK, AA (which is unlikely, since he slowed down on the flop), and will amost never raise here.I think this is a clear value bet.- Zach Link to post Share on other sites
Breaking Liberty 0 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 No need to make this hand a huge discussion about what to do. It’s pretty simple:Bet the river. Call the check raise if it comes. Good game. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 No need to make this hand a huge discussion about what to do. It’s pretty simple:Bet the river. Call the check raise if it comes. Good game.really ??***** Link to post Share on other sites
doubleatrain 0 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 No need to make this hand a huge discussion about what to do. It’s pretty simple:Bet the river. Call the check raise if it comes. Good game.I, being probably too passive, just check this river. The only way I do bet, however, is if I decide to fold to a check raise. I don't see, especially at low limits, anyone checkraising that river with anything I beat, frankly.So basically, my play is to check, but I don't disagree with betting, as long as it's a bet/fold plan. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 bet fold is the strongest play.I just check my way to millions though! Link to post Share on other sites
Breaking Liberty 0 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Bet/fold this river if you don't like money.You bet the river and I already explained why you should be betting the river, and it gets check raised and you are going to fold for 14-1 with an over pair?Are you kidding me? It does not matter what they are holding, your jacks are good here 1 in 14 times, at least! Link to post Share on other sites
Breaking Liberty 0 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 I don't see, especially at low limits, anyone checkraising that river with anything I beat, frankly.I do, I see ace-high check raising this river. I see pocket 10s check raising this river. I see 89 off suit check raising this river. I could go on.They check raise with any two cards to try and buy the pot because it is a scary board here!Bet/folding is -EV! Link to post Share on other sites
Breaking Liberty 0 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 No need to make this hand a huge discussion about what to do. It’s pretty simple:Bet the river. Call the check raise if it comes. Good game.really ??*****Hey what does ***** mean? As the president of your fan club I need to know these things. Link to post Share on other sites
pokerplayer24 0 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Bet/fold the river, really dont see how this has gotten so much discussion. Villain is a LAP so he is loose aggressive preflop. His 3-betting range can be huge here especially if hes attempting to to isolate. Even a passive player is most likely betting out with a high pp at this kind of flop. Link to post Share on other sites
Breaking Liberty 0 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Bet/fold this river if you don't like money. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Bet/fold this river if you don't like money."****", was just , hmm, not sure, accidental, I guessI don't see as much c/r bluffs as you, Liberty, apparently.I play a lower var style, I know.Screech has me considering bet/fold more, while Wang warns against it. Being that I can't fold 14 BB pots, I would call, and then never bet the river again when he shows me the boat. I'm really bad at putting river spews behind me (even though this bet/call may not be spewlicious, in a -EV kinda way)Remember, he knoww you will call the river at least 1/14 times, so would they bluff two players? Link to post Share on other sites
Breaking Liberty 0 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 I'm just saying if you really think bet/folding this river is the best play you might as well not even bet. Just check/call down and take your free showdown.I've seen too many hands where players check/raise scary boards with bogus hands to justify folding a good hand in a big pot. Link to post Share on other sites
RISEorFall 0 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Remember, he knoww you will call the river at least 1/14 times, so would they bluff two players?If they're a fish, they don't know this, they just bluff. They don't "know" anything, they just do it. That's what makes them fish. If they're goldfish, they only have a 3 second memory. Link to post Share on other sites
Breaking Liberty 0 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Lol. Link to post Share on other sites
doubleatrain 0 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 I don't see, especially at low limits, anyone checkraising that river with anything I beat, frankly.I do, I see ace-high check raising this river. I see pocket 10s check raising this river. I see 89 off suit check raising this river. I could go on.They check raise with any two cards to try and buy the pot because it is a scary board here!Bet/folding is -EV!I guess I'm just too used to the type of player that encourage so many crying calls that it hurts. I don't see very many c/r bluffs. In the games I'm playing, if someone shows aggression on the river they either hit on the turn or hit on the river.Don't get me wrong, maybe I'm just trying too hard to stop paying off hands that I know for a fact I just lost on the river, but I think in this spot, if you get check-raised, it's probably by a hand that beats jacks and fours. I don't see 89, TT, or Ace high checkraising a double paired board. Calling, yes, checkraising, no.Besides, one of the villains has been labeled as a LAP...if a passive player (post flop) check raises on that river...I probably just cry, frankly. Link to post Share on other sites
thespoil 0 Posted February 19, 2006 Author Share Posted February 19, 2006 No need to make this hand a huge discussion about what to do. It’s pretty simple:Bet the river. Call the check raise if it comes. Good game.Whoops. System drive crashed so I've been busy the last few days. Thanks to everyone for the replies.River: 4:spade: (11.25BB, 3 players) BB checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls......are you still calling? Link to post Share on other sites
Breaking Liberty 0 Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 Well that depends. If it is a real LAG-tard table, then probably. If it is a passive table and the pot was smaller, probably not.But, I'm probably not folding into such a HUGE pot at this point either. That makes it 15-1 with the overcall.I know, I'm a fish on these river bets. I don't like folding into big pots though, that's just me. Link to post Share on other sites
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