NoSup4U 0 Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Another interesting hand. How do you play this:You hold J9 of spades and limp in with 4 others. (pot is $25)Flop Qrr, 2 hearts and one diamond. It checks around. Turn is a 9 of diamonds. You are last to act and bet $20. One call. Then out of nowhere one player raises to $60.First question: Do you fold call or reraise here?Second question, assuming you've called: An offsuit King hits, and you now face a $75 (into the $165 pot). Do you call?You have no reads on the player, other than that he has more than doubled his buyin it looks like.Mark Link to post Share on other sites
Scott3705 0 Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 You really need some more info here.Where's the C/rer? BB UTG, Co? it make a difference. does he ever get out of line or do you get out of line a lot?I mean all you can really beat is a bluff, so does this player bluff a lot?Edit:Sorry I just read the bottom. Fold and move on. The edge is far too small here. Link to post Share on other sites
LongLiveYorke 38 Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 I agree. You made your bet hoping to take it down then and there, and when you didn't, you pretty much have to give up on the pot. If he's really going to randomly raise you there, as some would say, he's going to make you rich later when you have a real hand. He could easily be bluffing, but the problem is that if we think he is bluffing, we should probably raise the turn, which really commits us with an ugly hand. It costs way too much to find out if he's bluffing. Fold and wait for a bigger edge. Link to post Share on other sites
bmwmcoupe 0 Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 you beat nothing here, clear fold Link to post Share on other sites
NoSup4U 0 Posted February 12, 2006 Author Share Posted February 12, 2006 I guess my question then would be, if I am beat, what am I beat by?Meaning, what hand could this player be holding that he would check on the flop, and then check the turn with only myself left to act after him? If he had a monster, how could he let the flush draw draw for free on the flop, and 2 flush draws draw for free on the turn? If he had any hand at all, how could he allow this?And my only info on him as I've just sat down at the table is that he is more likely good than a donkey because he has a decent chip stack.Mark Link to post Share on other sites
NoSup4U 0 Posted February 12, 2006 Author Share Posted February 12, 2006 but the problem is that if we think he is bluffing, we should probably raise the turn, which really commits us with an ugly hand.I agree that a raise here is the most high risk option. Players are known to call crazy amounts in this game even with one card left to a flush draw. So a max reraise might still not win me the pot if I'm ahead here. And it commits a lot of money to the pot with a marginal hand. In my mind, this was the last of my options.Mark Link to post Share on other sites
NoSup4U 0 Posted February 12, 2006 Author Share Posted February 12, 2006 Where's the C/rer? BB UTG, Co? it make a difference.Sorry, I meant to post that because its important I think. He is second last to act on the flop and turn. Just ahead of me.Mark Link to post Share on other sites
Scott3705 0 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 I guess my question then would be, if I am beat, what am I beat by?Meaning, what hand could this player be holding that he would check on the flop, and then check the turn with only myself left to act after him? If he had a monster, how could he let the flush draw draw for free on the flop, and 2 flush draws draw for free on the turn? If he had any hand at all, how could he allow this?And my only info on him as I've just sat down at the table is that he is more likely good than a donkey because he has a decent chip stack.MarkA queen or a 9 w/ one of those x's.This is a situation that I really don't mind laying down the best hand a lot of the time here. All you're really beating here is a bluff and you don't have enough of a read to try to catch a bluffer. I'm guessing some random PP got showdown here but I really don't worry too much on this hand.As for other parts of the post. People let flush draws go for free on the flop w/ monsters (good players and bad). And bad players will let a two flush draws w/ 3 to the str8 see a free river w/ a monster too. Link to post Share on other sites
NoSup4U 0 Posted February 13, 2006 Author Share Posted February 13, 2006 A queen or a 9 w/ one of those x's.This is a situation that I really don't mind laying down the best hand a lot of the time here. All you're really beating here is a bluff and you don't have enough of a read to try to catch a bluffer. I'm guessing some random PP got showdown here but I really don't worry too much on this hand.As for other parts of the post. People let flush draws go for free on the flop w/ monsters (good players and bad). And bad players will let a two flush draws w/ 3 to the str8 see a free river w/ a monster too.*nod* I guess I see where you are coming from. For what its worth, my analysis on the hand: Being that I have no reads on the guy to have any idea if he's a bluffer or not, I would go with the straight forward 'What does his play say about his hand?' method.Preflop: We all limped, he was in late-ish position so at most I'm assuming he doesn't have a big pair here. Other than that, he could have any reasonable hand.Flop: He's second to last to act. There is a flush draw available. I am not willing to give him credit for top pair here. He has no reason to think I'll bet for him to check raise. And with top pair, he can't give a free card to the draw, or give someone with a lower pair the chance to pick up two pair, or give an A or K a chance to come off. A check with a Q here by someone this late in the action is poor play, and I'm willing to give him more credit as a player than that. He could have a monster like a set and be willing to give a free card, he could have a low pair, a draw, or nothing.Turn: 9 comes making a second flush draw possible. Once again, second to last in the action with no indication that I'll bet, he checks. At this point, I can no longer give him credit for a set. There is now basically a 50/50 chance a scare card will come on the river for a flush. There is also a possible oesd out there for anyone with JT. I just cannot see how anyone with a hand here could justify a check. This goes the same for anyone with 2 pair. Checking there just isn't an option. I bet behind him. There is a call from another player. Now, if you were this player and had just seen this go down, what would you think about the two players in front of you? I would think most likely he would think that I have a medium to low strength hand and am now betting it because twice the action has checked around to me. The guy calling me could have any number of the available draws out there. Lets say he is on a flush draw. This seems to me like a good time to semi bluff raise to take the pot down right here. A lot of players would fold here without 2 pair or better. And if it turns out I happen to have 2 pair or better, then he has the redraw to the flush or whatever on the river. I would consider this good play by an aggressive player who understands what is going on around him at the table. More likely than not, nobody here has a big hand. So he is going to take advantage, with some outs if he does need them.But he gets flat called.River: K comes. Now if you are him, you have to bet here. I have shown no strength by flat calling the turn. Maybe I was betting a draw and unless I had JT, it didn't come. He has check raised the turn, indicating big strength. I would need a big hand here to call him. But if I had a big hand, I would have raised on the turn more than likely. Especially with the previous caller (3rd player in the hand) still to act behind me. I can't let him come along on what is clearly a draw there. So I can't have a big hand. So he bets out $75. My feeling is that the pair of 9s is ahead here based on all of this, and I think a flat call is the correct play here. I feel that by the way the hand went down, this player was most likely on a flush draw and trying to push out weaker hands on the turn. And unless it was a K high draw, I am ahead here.Anyway, food for thought. GL all.Mark Link to post Share on other sites
pokerplayer101 0 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Good thinking. But why let him see the free card? Link to post Share on other sites
HurricaneKyle 0 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 You're beat here. Let it go, you made a stab at it and were rebuked. It happens, just get them next time. Link to post Share on other sites
petersun 0 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 I don't see what hand you could beat. Fold is the right choice here.Some hands can make this play. You assume the player is capable yet you have no read. I think Q9 could make this play, or trips that hit one of the rags. Not everyone is afraid of the flush draw when they hit trips or top pair (they may be foolish, but that's why this game is profitable for so many). Link to post Share on other sites
NoSup4U 0 Posted February 13, 2006 Author Share Posted February 13, 2006 Good thinking. But why let him see the free card?Well, I did consider reraising as I felt like he was on a flush draw, and just trying to push me off a mediocre hand. But I felt like a reraise would commit so much money to this pot, might get called anyway by someone on a flush draw, and might pot commit me to calling pretty much any bet on the river, even unimproved. (remember this is $150 max bet, not no limit, so I can't just push all in here, nor can he on the river)So I felt like I was ahead, but wasn't willing to get too insane based on this read of how the hand played out so far. I decided to get to the river as cheaply as possible.Mark Link to post Share on other sites
oceansize 0 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Another interesting hand. How do you play this:You hold J9 of spades and limp in with 4 others. (pot is $25)Flop Qrr, 2 hearts and one diamond. It checks around. Turn is a 9 of diamonds. You are last to act and bet $20. One call. Then out of nowhere one player raises to $60.First question: Do you fold call or reraise here?Second question, assuming you've called: An offsuit King hits, and you now face a $75 (into the $165 pot). Do you call?You have no reads on the player, other than that he has more than doubled his buyin it looks like.MarkYeah. When you make a bluff or semi-bluff keep in mind that is what you are doing. If it fails to take the pot you can't justify throwing good money in after bad. Fold. Link to post Share on other sites
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