what was the right call?

[healeydays 0]

Guys, I played at a tourney last night and saw some action at the final table that I am wondering what would be the right call. 2 guys going head to headplayer 1 is betting up the pot and player 2 is callingthe river comes up player 1 bets 20,000 player 2 goes all in to a total of about 50,000player 1 asks him "How much do you have?" and has player 2 covered with chipsplayer 2 took that as a call and flipped his cards beating player 1Player 1 complained that he hadn't called yet and was asking for a count.What is the proper call by a pit boss here? I heard a couple possibilities decisions:1) Hand is dead cause player 2 showed his cards before the hand was done and player 1 wins2) Player 2 wins but player 1 doesn't have to put in the call cause he hadn't3) Player 2 wins and player 1 must put in the full amount of the call

[Manihack 0]

I have no idea, but I'm going to guess the 2nd option.

[PoppinFresh 0]

I also have no idea, but I do like this guessing thing!I'm gonna go with #1, since you can't reveal your hole cards in a tournament.

[Pupsta 0]

where's the "player 1 now has the option of calling the allin"? player 2 doesn't just automatically win because he tabled his cards. the only one that's even plausible in this situation is #1, because the hand isn't over unless player 2's cards are ruled dead. if they're not ruled dead, player 1 has the choice to call or fold now.

[CrazyJoe 0]

tournament play says it should be #1, i don't necessarily agree with it, but the rules would say #1.

[CrazyJoe 0]

tournament play says it should be #1, i don't necessarily agree with it, but the rules would say #1.

[doublemeup 0]

I think the rules say #1 but I have no friggin clue.

[Royal27 0]

where's the "player 1 now has the option of calling the allin"?  player 2 doesn't just automatically win because he tabled his cards.  the only one that's even plausible in this situation is #1, because the hand isn't over unless player 2's cards are ruled dead.  if they're not ruled dead, player 1 has the choice to call or fold now.

I'm thinking Pupsta is right.

[THOAAG 0]

The hand is still live. Player 2 may get a penalty for exposing his cards while there is still action, but by no means is his hand dead.

[Eric Smith 0]

I think player 2 should have to suffer because it was an error on his end. I'm guessing he had the best hand, but he should still lose the pot. Otherwise, next time i sense a player is about to move in on me, and i'm not sure i have the best hand, i'll do what player 2 did and play dumb. It would save me from calling another bet, and i could still win the pot. what was the verdict anyway?

[monix 0]

Option 1 - your hand is dead if you expose it in tournament play.

[THOAAG 0]

That's what the time penalty is for. 10 minutes away from the table can hurt. In this situation though, I'd probably just give player 2 a warning.

[Eric Smith 0]

The hand is still live.  Player 2 may get a penalty for exposing his cards while there is still action, but by no means is his hand dead.

huh? i'm pretty sure if a player reveals his hand it dies. In this case, the hand would be over because there aren't any other players left in the pot.how else could you finish the hand? just play with player 2's cards up lol

[THOAAG 0]

Exactly. The other player now knows what he has to beat. I don't have my copy of the TDA rules with me here, but I know for a fact that one of the rules states that if someone exposes their cards, they may incur a penalty, but the hand will NOT be killed.

[Pupsta 0]

I think player 2 should have to suffer because it was an error on his end.  I'm guessing he had the best hand, but he should still lose the pot.  Otherwise, next time i sense a player is about to move in on me, and i'm not sure i have the best hand, i'll do what player 2 did and play dumb.  It would save me from calling another bet, and i could still win the pot.  what was the verdict anyway?

that's a good idea....turn your hand over when you're allin, so you're only getting called if you're beaten. it doesn't even matter if it's explicitly written in the tourney rules that the hand should be dead...most tourney directors will still make rulings based on "fairness of the game" and i can't see any "fairness of the game ruling" knocking someone out of a tournament without ever going to showdown with an allin hand. based on the three poll choices, i'd have to assume that #1 was the one that happened, because 2 and 3 are impossible.

[godoffrisbee 0]

no. here's how it would happen. option #2. no one's hand would be dead just because it is exposed because it's heads-up and the action affects no one else. if it was a multi-way pot and cards were exposed, the hand would be dead and the TD would have to decide on penalties, bets, etc...

[Eric Smith 0]

I think player 2 should have to suffer because it was an error on his end.  I'm guessing he had the best hand, but he should still lose the pot.  Otherwise, next time i sense a player is about to move in on me, and i'm not sure i have the best hand, i'll do what player 2 did and play dumb.  It would save me from calling another bet, and i could still win the pot.  what was the verdict anyway?

that's a good idea....turn your hand over when you're allin, so you're only getting called if you're beaten. it doesn't even matter if it's explicitly written in the tourney rules that the hand should be dead...most tourney directors will still make rulings based on "fairness of the game" and i can't see any "fairness of the game ruling" knocking someone out of a tournament without ever going to showdown with an allin hand. based on the three poll choices, i'd have to assume that #1 was the one that happened, because 2 and 3 are impossible.

yehh re-read what i wrote there bud. you got it wrongi would show my hand before he had the chance to raise

[monix 0]

From the Cardplayer rules section:19. Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see contestants eliminated. A player may not show any cards during a deal (unless the event has only two remaining players). If a player deliberately shows a card, that hand may be ruled dead and the player penalized.http://www.cardplayer.com/rules-of-poker/t.../tournament.phpI knew this rule, but I now see that there is some flexibility when it is head's up...

[blakheart 3]

tournament play says it should be #1, i don't necessarily agree with it, but the rules would say #1.

It is crappy in this situation, but true

[Pupsta 0]

no.  here's how it would happen.  option #2.  no one's hand would be dead just because it is exposed because it's heads-up and the action affects no one else.  if it was a multi-way pot and cards were exposed, the hand would be dead and the TD would have to decide on penalties, bets, etc...

option #2 and #3 aren't realistic. #2 says that he turns the cards over and is automatically awarded the pot? no?option 2 should read "player 1 elects to fold, awarding player 2 the pot"

[76clubs 0]

no.  here's how it would happen.  option #2.  no one's hand would be dead just because it is exposed because it's heads-up and the action affects no one else.  if it was a multi-way pot and cards were exposed, the hand would be dead and the TD would have to decide on penalties, bets, etc...

option #2 and #3 aren't realistic. #2 says that he turns the cards over and is automatically awarded the pot? no?option 2 should read "player 1 elects to fold, awarding player 2 the pot"

I agree with pupsta here. Look at what happened at the 2001 WSOP with Phil and Carlos. Phil thought carlos said 'call' when he said 'count'. Phil flipped up his cards, but covered them quickly. then carlos called since he had phil beat. this is phils story anyway. lolhttp://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/a..._id=477&m_id=18

[healeydays 0]

Ok guys here's what happened. I was player 1 and player 2 was a loudmouth that was driving us nutz all nite and was already pretty drunk by hour 6 in the tourney. I asked him for a count cause I was trying to get a read on him. He had been telegraphing a tell when someone asked him about the hand. He'd have a slight smirk on his face if he had a good hand every time once asked something about his play of a hand. He had me beat when he flipped his cards. I tried to suggest the correct ruling would be #1 since he had flipped his cards before the hand was over but it was ruled that #2 was going to happen. In the end it didn't matter cause I put him all in 3 hands later and forced him out before the money. I ended up taking 2nd in the tourney which was fine for a Friday nite and a last minute decision to play. Mike B

[Juandastyle 0]

Situation that came up last year in a $5 mtt (low limit, i know)I flopped middle pair, and bets were made, turn came giving my midde pair a friend, another, 8 i believe for 3 8's. check, check. River comes and ace, and for some reason my opponent (heads up) flips down his hand and says "aces", which to i reply, "can i bet yet?" He says, "oh, shit, yeah" and i thought for a minute, and i went all in, a huge raise. I knew what he had, he knew i knew what he had, and he called because he thought i was trying to buy the pot... rofl.I think that if a player shows his cards heads up, when it isn't his turn to act, really all that does is help his opponent, so allowing action to occur after said showing of cards doesn't hurt the game, but hurts the person who screwed up.

[mclark340 0]

I am a little confused about how you know #1 had a worse hand unless he put his hand up.While I understand the rule about exposed cards...this rule is intended to protect those still in the hand. If it is down to two poeple I am under the impression this rule no longer applies. It is meant to keep people from sharing information.I know that I have at times exposed my cards in heads up as I am making a decision to call an all in. You should see the shock on your opponents face when you do it. You can get a tell from them as to what you should do. Nobody is hurt in that the action is over once you make a decision.One thing is certain, Player #1 does not have to put any more money in the pot becasue Player #2 is an idiot.I am interested in your opinion on the rule in heads up as I explained above.

[SpeedKills 0]

Option 1 - your hand is dead if you expose it in tournament play.

what is the rule in cash games if you expose your hand?