daniel, a few questions about going broke...

[thakilla 0]

Me and two friends are going to moving to Las Vegas sometime this summer to give playing poker as a profession a shot. They both already play professionally online and live. I have been a winning player over the last 3 years, but I have a real job as well. I just decided that I am only going to be 25 years old with no family one time in my life and if I want to give playing poker professionally a shot I might as well do it now while I don't have much to lose. If I get out there and can't hack it then I will just have to get a job like every other regular Joe and start over...who cares when I am 25 anyway? Anyway, everyone always says that every poker player goes broke from time to time and even the best ones have been broke before and will be broke again. Can this really be true? So I want to ask you a few questions:Have you ever been broke? How many times? How often? What were the reasons? How did you react to going broke? How do you recommend someone react if they do go broke? Is it really all that common for poker players to go broke? How do you avoid going broke?Obviously, I don't want to go broke and I just don't really understand why it has happened or will happen to good solid poker players. I don't have any leaks outside of poker (no sports betting, pit games, or spending problems). Surely the variances can't be so big in poker that they can't be overcome with a little discipline. I have read a lot of material on turning pro and bankroll management and it all pretty much is written by a professionals saying that they wouldn't recommend to their family or friends to try and play poker as a profession because it is such a grind and takes a different kind of person...yada yada yada. I was just curious what you had to say on this topic as you seem to be pretty level headed. Sorry that this is so long, but I am pretty curious about all of this and for good reason. Quitting my job and moving to Vegas is a pretty drastic step, but I certainly won't know if I can do it until I try so I am gonna give it a shot while I can. Thanks in advance for your help,Pat Cruse-FYI, I also posted this same post on Todd Witteles' "Ask Druff" forum to get a few different points of view.

[RayPowers 0]

While I voted option 2, the odds of Daniel responding to a post directed at him like this is very very slim. If he did, every thread woudl suddenly say 'Daniel, can you tell me what color to dye my pubes?" or "Daniel, what should I eat for dinner?"Not trying to be a jerk, I'm just saying, it doesn't normally work.Now, if you're up for the opinion of a lowly forum poster....A large number of the high level poker players you see are also degenerate gamblers. They even admit this. Their exemplary poker skills keep them above water most of the time, but not always, and then they dip down and "go broke" on a bad poker run plus degenerative gambling life style. Most of them you never hear about, because poker players pass around money quite a bit, and its pretty normal to hear about one poker player lending another money to get back on his feet. It seems to be a very common practice. So... if you're not a degenrative gambler, and you practice proper bankroll management, it's unlikely you will ever truly go broke. But you have to be dedicated to those two principals 100%. You'll have bad runs, you'll move down in stakes, but if you do it right, going broke doesn't really fit into the equation in terms of bankroll, unless, well, you know, you're so bad you can't beat the .15/.30 game. But i have more faith in you than that.Get a second job, just part time. Make extra non poker income. It will help in your stability starting out, and will give you some balance in life away from the poker table. A little rambly, but there's my advice..Ray

[thakilla 0]

I realize he is a busy, but he does do a pretty good job about keeping up to date on the forums. Also, I figured posting would get some feedback from other forum posters as well....it is all appreciated. If he doesn't chose to answer I'll understand, but I really do think people would be interested in hearing his response to my questions. Thanks for the input..Pat

[Governator 54]

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/a...a_id=136&m_id=5Patrick

[TS Clark 0]

Ray's advice is good. And he's certainly right about many, many card players having, shall we say, a little too much gamble in them. Even those without major non-poker leaks (table games, drugs, etc.) will often break themselves because they disobey the "rules" of bankroll management. Daniel was quoted once as saying he used to play 80-160 with a 3200 roll. If you don't want to ever go broke, this is not the kind of gamble you want to have in you as a rule.Read Barry Greenstein's book (if you haven't already). I can't think of a better book to read if you're going to go down the road of trying to live this lifestyle and do this for a living. Be EXTREMELY disciplined in your adherence to bankroll management -- don't consistently play higher than your roll can support. And, importantly, practice good game selection. Even if you're a regular 30-60 player, if you have the choice between a tough 30 game and a squishy 20 game, play the smaller game and make the easier money.Finally, Ray's advice about getting a part-time job away from poker is a good one. Compared to playing cards at the Bellagio for a living, working 30 hours a week at Home Depot may not sound that fun. But it's providing you a risk-free income while you're finding your step as a pro poker player, plus it may provide you some health benefits. At 25, you might not think health insurance is something you need to sweat, but have one car accident where you fracture your leg and there goes your whole bankroll to the hospital.Good luck. If you are smart, disciplined, and have a bit of talent, I'm sure you can make a go of it. I don't think that 99% of those who play have the mental and emotional temperment to play for a living, but, as you said, you are in a good position in your life to find out without affecting others.

[Rude Dog 0]

TP/MMJust kidding. You are correct about only being single and 25 once in your life. If you have no other pressing responsibilities...I don't see where you can lose much. The experience alone is worth it. I don't know what your BR is, but, if you lose it all, will you die? Prolly not.If it was me, and I could afford it, I'd put a couple of thousand somewhere as fall back money, so, if it all went to hell I could still pay some rent and eat for a month while I got a real job and gave it up if I had to.Good luck, sounds like an exciting time ahead of you.

[RayPowers 0]

Conveniently, the new Card Player online has an article about going broke that's worth a read:http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/a...5271&m_id=65582Ray

[fleung22 1]

I picked option #2 too because I don't know who the hell you are.I have a friend who is a professional poker player himself for about 4 years and actually used to play with Daniel and Evelyn in their Toronto days.He, and many other pros, told me that going pro is often not a conscious decision. He just started playing more and more and the jobs he was getting simply didn't interest him or make the same type of cash. He just realized one day that he was making a living out of it and somebody asked him if he was a pro...then it hit him. "Yeah, I guess I am!"My pro buddy has never busted and his advice has really helped me. I had bad habits like playing longer when I'm stuck or craps or playing beyond my bankroll. I had an amazing run for 16 months but hit a horrible run for about 3 months in a row and almost went broke. I've rebuilt my bankroll with the help of my buddy and will hopefully know better this time around. Being able to look at yourself and being honest really helps. My friend watched Daniel go broke a few times so he was only too familiar with the dangers of poker and tried to learn from all the experiences of players around him.It's a tough way to make an easy living alright. The best poker players have a lot of gamble in them and that willing-to-risk-everything attitude gives the pros the extra little edge that can make the difference between being just a winning player and professional player.I am a winning player but I know that I am not able to make a living doing this...at least not at the amount of cash I would expect from it.I guess everything depends on what you're expecting from all this. My buddy is like the Commish in Rounders...solid grinder that can pull down six figures annually.But then there are the others who want the glory and the millions and THAT desire will push you to the felt more often than most of us can handle before hitting the gold (assuming it ever comes).Anyhow...You're absolutely right about the timing in your life to do this if it's what you really want.I wish you the best of luck...just not when I'm in Vegas 8)

[speedz99 145]

Your screen name makes me nervous about your ability to function as a professional gambler.

[Bill_Brasky 0]

I was just curious what you had to say on this topic as you seem to be pretty level headed.

If you wrote this regarding Dan Druff then I would say you're almost certainly going to fail. You clearly have no ability to read people. Seriously though, you should be more specific if you want a better answer. We need to know what level you are able to beat, and in what capacity. Also, what kind of bankroll are you starting with? Post some of your statistics in the strat forum, and you'll get some good answers.

[primetime 0]

i have a few things to say that might help...1. taking a shot is the gamble and if you are willing to do it then going broke once or twice or even three times should not worry you...you can always get more money..2. play in the major casinos...local casinos(sunset,green valley,south coast..etc) are for locals who have nothing else to do(old men)...the big casinos have all the fish3. when i play...i chat with alot of guys who are here to give it a shot...one common thing i hear is...they are all degenerate gamblers..STAY AWAY from the pits...craps, BJ sports betting....its hard for some...but you said you dont..but..its different when you get here and have alot of timegood luck and may all your pots be monsterous...

[primetime 0]

i have a few things to say that might help...1. taking a shot is the gamble and if you are willing to do it then going broke once or twice or even three times should not worry you...you can always get more money..2. play in the major casinos...local casinos(sunset,green valley,south coast..etc) are for locals who have nothing else to do(old men)...the big casinos have all the fish3. when i play...i chat with alot of guys who are here to give it a shot...one common thing i hear is...they are all degenerate gamblers..STAY AWAY from the pits...craps, BJ sports betting....its hard for some...but you said you dont..but..its different when you get here and have alot of timegood luck and may all your pots be monsterous...

[speedz99 145]

I was just curious what you had to say on this topic as you seem to be pretty level headed.

If you wrote this regarding Dan Druff then I would say you're almost certainly going to fail. You clearly have no ability to read people. Seriously though, you should be more specific if you want a better answer. We need to know what level you are able to beat, and in what capacity. Also, what kind of bankroll are you starting with? Post some of your statistics in the strat forum, and you'll get some good answers.

Disregard this entire post.Sorry, Caleb.

[Bill_Brasky 0]

I was just curious what you had to say on this topic as you seem to be pretty level headed.

If you wrote this regarding Dan Druff then I would say you're almost certainly going to fail. You clearly have no ability to read people. Seriously though, you should be more specific if you want a better answer. We need to know what level you are able to beat, and in what capacity. Also, what kind of bankroll are you starting with? Post some of your statistics in the strat forum, and you'll get some good answers.

Disregard this entire post.Sorry, Caleb.

Why? Just because of the joke about Dan Druff or is my advice really that bad? I only told him to be more specific.

[powerpoker 0]

i have a few things to say that might help...1. taking a shot is the gamble and if you are willing to do it then going broke once or twice or even three times should not worry you...you can always get more money..2. play in the major casinos...local casinos(sunset,green valley,south coast..etc) are for locals who have nothing else to do(old men)...the big casinos have all the fish3. when i  play...i chat with alot of guys who are here to give it a shot...one common thing i hear is...they are all degenerate gamblers..STAY AWAY from the pits...craps, BJ sports betting....its hard for some...but you said you dont..but..its different when you get here and have alot of timegood luck and may all your pots be monsterous...

i have to agree with pretty much everything you said here...espically the 2nd point about playin in the local casions, it just aint worth it. You will always see the same ppl playin at the same time and they basically just pass money back and forth to each other. Usually all the fish are at the bigger casinos and if you play at the same ones enough you get to know who the locals are as well and you know which ones its +ev to play against and which locals are tough and def -ev. Good luck to ya though im sure ill see you around out here.

[therrinn 0]

Professional Poker, by Mark Blade, talks in far greater detail about bankroll management and most of the aspects of playing professionally than Barry's book. I'd definitely recommend it as a read if you're considering playing professionally.

[finztotheleft 0]

Good Luck.......Have to have some fun in life and the time to try this is now when you don't have other committments. Keep us postedIt is pretty nervy and unrealstic to expect DN to answer this . Win the Protege contest or buy the upcoming book.

[pckt10s 0]

stay away from the hookers.

[Andersun 0]

stay away from the hookers.

[TeeSludge 0]

Me and two friends are going to moving to Las Vegas sometime this summer to give playing poker as a profession a shot. They both already play professionally online and live. I have been a winning player over the last 3 years, but I have a real job as well. I just decided that I am only going to be 25 years old with no family one time in my life and if I want to give playing poker professionally a shot I might as well do it now while I don't have much to lose. If I get out there and can't hack it then I will just have to get a job like every other regular Joe and start over...who cares when I am 25 anyway? Anyway, everyone always says that every poker player goes broke from time to time and even the best ones have been broke before and will be broke again. Can this really be true? So I want to ask you a few questions:Have you ever been broke? How many times? How often? What were the reasons? How did you react to going broke? How do you recommend someone react if they do go broke? Is it really all that common for poker players to go broke? How do you avoid going broke?Obviously, I don't want to go broke and I just don't really understand why it has happened or will happen to good solid poker players. I don't have any leaks outside of poker (no sports betting, pit games, or spending problems). Surely the variances can't be so big in poker that they can't be overcome with a little discipline. I have read a lot of material on turning pro and bankroll management and it all pretty much is written by a professionals saying that they wouldn't recommend to their family or friends to try and play poker as a profession because it is such a grind and takes a different kind of person...yada yada yada. I was just curious what you had to say on this topic as you seem to be pretty level headed. Sorry that this is so long, but I am pretty curious about all of this and for good reason. Quitting my job and moving to Vegas is a pretty drastic step, but I certainly won't know if I can do it until I try so I am gonna give it a shot while I can. Thanks in advance for your help,Pat Cruse-FYI, I also posted this same post on Todd Witteles' "Ask Druff" forum to get a few different points of view.

I don't have any leaks outside of poker (no sports betting, pit games, or spending problems).You don't have any yet, but once you live in a city that revolves around bad habits, you may. I've never been to Vegas, but living around Atlantic City was my biggest leak in my life. I would spend tons of money drinking at the bars, shopping at the stores and doing other things just living the life. It's fun but it makes it tough to survive without going broke. Make sure you have money set aside to pay all your bills while your there. Don't buy any nice things for yourself with your winnings until you have an extra large bankroll. Don't try to be a balla until you really can afford to be one. If you are successful and running well at first it is very easy to think that the mobney will always be there. Come up with a playing schedule and stick to it and keep your bankroll completely separate from your spending and bill mobney. Don't move up in limits until you really are ready. And finally a nice little gay quote that I like from the movie "Blow""Sometimes you're flush and sometimes you're bust, and when you're up, it's never as good as it seems, and when you're down, you never think you're gonna be up again. But life goes on."

[PrtyPSux 0]

If you are successful and running well at first it is very easy to think that the mobney will always be there.

uh huh.When I first started to live off poker, I was playing 2/4 and barely scratching out a living. Then I discovered 3/6 6 max. At that point I only really needed 1k a month to live, of course I was making much more than 1k a month off of 3/6. So with all the money I had, and all the stupidity I had, I spent 1k on a camera, 2k on a trip to vegas, bought a new laptop with an extra screen, went to strip clubs, went out drinking at expensive places, ate out every day, bought the font row tickets at concerts instead of decent seats for much less $..etc. All of a sudden I ran horribly for a month, I still had savings for living but I didnt have any extra money to "re-fill" my BR with. At somepoint during that downswing I decided that I wanted to concentrate on becoming a great player, rather than on making a lot of money...so I started to forefit a lot of potential profit in order to improve, for instance I would play 1 table rather than 4 or 5, I would play higher limits ocassionaly, I played less tourneys but the tourneys I did play had big buy ins, and so on. It turns out that for about 3 months I havent really profited from playing, so I have been living on the money I had saved for "emergency". Today, Im out of "emergency" money, and my BR is lower than it should be. If someone told me that I could change the past 3 months, I wouldnt because I am now a MUCH better player than I was 3 months ago. However, I would DEFINATELY change the spending I did when I first started, all I really needed was my laptop w/ the new screen, the rest of the stuff I truly regret (the trip to Vegas sucked,and I havent used the camera at all,) If I didnt spend that much back then I would have A LOT more money now. I guess what Im trying to say is that, you dont know what your plans are going to be in a month or two, so the more disciplined you are now the more freedom you will have in the future. Taking shots, and gambles arent necisarily bad things in my opinion. I believe that miss-managing (if thats even a word) your life outside of poker is much worse than missmanaging your bankroll. Thats just my opinion though.GL in vegas.

[bmwmcoupe 0]

I been playing for a living for a few years now and for me it really hasent been a grind.The income is very steady, I mostly play 2 4 nl online, and abit of 5 10, the worst month ive had this year was plus 10k and i average around 15k, by the way these numbers are in canadian$. Alot of people ask me why i dont play higher stakes, and the answer is simple variance is much bigger and i am happy with my steady almost no variance 15k a month salary playing 2 4nl. My advice is BANKROLL MANAGEMENT, there is no reason to go broke i play with a 35 max buy in rule, and i have never came cloose to going broke but i guess i am not the gambler that most of you guys are. DOnt get me wrong i do loose ive had -3000$k days, but never a losing week or month. find a game you can beat easily and stick with it.

[PrtyPSux 0]

I the answer is simple variance is much bigger and i am happy with my steady almost no variance 15k a month salary playing. find a game you can beat easily and stick with it.

this is the other way to look at it. No offense but I disagree with your theory and what you're doing. Thats just my opinion though, you are obviously doing very well for yourself. I guess it just depends on your motivations, do you want to be great and someday TP/MM? or do you want to make easy money? I dont think you can do both. Personally I would never be comfortable with the fact that I knew I could be doing better than I currently am, maybe its greed..but in my opinion greed is a good thing.

[mk 11]

I been playing for a living for a few years now and for me it really hasent been a grind.The income is very steady, I mostly play 2 4 nl online, and abit of 5 10, the worst month ive had this year was plus 10k and i average around 15k, by the way these numbers are in canadian$. Alot of people ask me why i dont play higher stakes, and the answer is simple variance is much bigger and i am happy with my steady almost no variance 15k a month salary playing 2 4nl. My advice is BANKROLL MANAGEMENT, there is no reason to go broke i play with a 35 max buy in rule, and i have never came cloose to going broke but i guess i am not the gambler that most of you guys are. DOnt get me wrong i do loose ive had -3000$k days, but never a losing week or month. find a game you can beat easily and stick with it.

You should post in strategy more.

[TeeSludge 0]

If you are successful and running well at first it is very easy to think that the mobney will always be there.

uh huh.When I first started to live off poker, I was playing 2/4 and barely scratching out a living. Then I discovered 3/6 6 max. At that point I only really needed 1k a month to live, of course I was making much more than 1k a month off of 3/6. So with all the money I had, and all the stupidity I had, I spent 1k on a camera, 2k on a trip to vegas, bought a new laptop with an extra screen, went to strip clubs, went out drinking at expensive places, ate out every day, bought the font row tickets at concerts instead of decent seats for much less $..etc. All of a sudden I ran horribly for a month, I still had savings for living but I didnt have any extra money to "re-fill" my BR with. At somepoint during that downswing I decided that I wanted to concentrate on becoming a great player, rather than on making a lot of money...so I started to forefit a lot of potential profit in order to improve, for instance I would play 1 table rather than 4 or 5, I would play higher limits ocassionaly, I played less tourneys but the tourneys I did play had big buy ins, and so on. It turns out that for about 3 months I havent really profited from playing, so I have been living on the money I had saved for "emergency". Today, Im out of "emergency" money, and my BR is lower than it should be. If someone told me that I could change the past 3 months, I wouldnt because I am now a MUCH better player than I was 3 months ago. However, I would DEFINATELY change the spending I did when I first started, all I really needed was my laptop w/ the new screen, the rest of the stuff I truly regret (the trip to Vegas sucked,and I havent used the camera at all,) If I didnt spend that much back then I would have A LOT more money now. I guess what Im trying to say is that, you dont know what your plans are going to be in a month or two, so the more disciplined you are now the more freedom you will have in the future. Taking shots, and gambles arent necisarily bad things in my opinion. I believe that miss-managing (if thats even a word) your life outside of poker is much worse than missmanaging your bankroll. Thats just my opinion though.GL in vegas.

We've had pretty much the same life over the past year. New laptop, trips to Florida, Toronto and North Carolina, New TV, moved up to higher limits and tougher games, became better player, out of emergency money, BR lower than it should be and now fighting to get back to where I started.