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hyper aggressive - bad call down?


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Over on Keller's site, this hand generated a big discussion. I think some of it is results oriented, so I wanted to get people's opinions here on the hand. Flame away.Limit Holdem $2/$4Full Ring GameRayPowers in MP is dealt :heartsa: :clubsj: 2 Folds, RayPowers Raises, 3 Folds, LP2 Call, 2 Folds, BB(BB) Raises, RayPowers Calls, LP2 Calls.LP2 plays with literally anything and rides it out, so his call means nothing. BB is fairly tight, so his raise could indicate a medium pocket pair or up, or AK/AQ, which would be bad for me. I open raised early with not the greatest hand because the table had been really tight, and I had been trying to isolate LP2 a lot to get his money. It worked more often than not, but obviously BB's raise was concerning. Still, getting 8:1 (I am 100% sure LP2 will call) I feel I should call.Flop comes :clubs5: :spadesa: :diamonds7:BB Bets, RayPowers raises, LP2 calls, BB re-raises, RayPowers calls, LP2 calls.I raise here to see if he really had an ace (with likely a better kicker than me), or maybe hit his set with 7's or something, versus him just making a continuation bet. His reraise to me said yes, but LP2 is riding it out here, so the pot is pretty big and I intend to check call down the rest of this hand just in case BB is trying to push me around with say J's or Q's, and because i have pretty good odds to draw, even if its to three outs.Turn comes :clubsa:BB bets, RayPowers calls, LP2 calls.I may have trips, but if he hit his set, he has a full house, I am likely still behind, but the pot is big, and I want a shot at it. Yes, I am discounting LP2 all the way through this. Knowing him, he has like 68o.River comes :diamondsj::shock::-)BB bets, RayPowers raises, LP2 re-raises (WTF?!?!?!?), BB calls, RayPowers caps, LP2 calls, BB Calls. Ok, flame on.Ray

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I don't see anything wrong with the play. You could be drawing to 3 outs to win and 6 to split on the turn, and there's a chance BB is being aggressive with KK or QQ, with the pot laying 11-1 (given LP2's guaranteed call). It's not quite WA/WB with the dead money involved, but I do like going for a safe overcall in that spot. Nice river. LP2 probably has a brilliantly slowplayed (sw) 77 or 55.Edited to add the split outs. It's Friday. Me tired.

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My line would be to raise the flop, call the reraise, and fold the turn unless it's an A or a J. I don't like the flop raise, if your plan is to call down UI if you get reraised.If I don't trust BB, and I intend on calling down UI, then I just call on the flop (unless I'm fairly sure that he would usually 3-bet KK-JJ here, but most players would not normally do so).Once the A hits on the turn, however, I play it as you did, figuring that the A makes it less likely that he has the case A (although I still have him most likely on AK or AQ), and I now know that when I'm behind, I have 3 outs to the nuts and another 9 outs for a split.

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You've played it fine. Raising the flop to put the pressure on the LP when you may also have the winning hand is good.When its 3-bet you can guess that you are beat, but getting 15-1 immediate, peeling is ok.The Ace on the turn has just increased your outs a whole lot, so calling there is fine too.River plays itself.What concerns me though is this:

BB's raise was concerning. Still, getting 8:1 (I am 100% sure LP2 will call) I feel I should call.
Do you ever call preflop, get raised 1 more bet and fold before the flop comes?
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What concerns me though is this:
BB's raise was concerning. Still, getting 8:1 (I am 100% sure LP2 will call) I feel I should call.
Do you ever call preflop, get raised 1 more bet and fold before the flop comes?
If you call being the big blind calling, then yes. Otherwise, no. But if its folded to the SB and he raises and I have something joyous like 82o, I just give it up.That comment was mainly to highlight that I think I may be beat even preflop, but that pot odds are good for me. For the guy who votes for calling the flop bet, I'd like to discuss more, because my big issue is, if i just call this bet, I really have no idea what BB has.I often bet/raise the flop for information. I think it gives me the chance to win the pot right there, and it gives me more information about the holding BB has. A while back though, there was a trend of hands that concluded with the fact that people felt I often bet too often "for information." Do you think this is one of those times?Ray
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For the guy who votes for calling the flop bet, I'd like to discuss more, because my big issue is, if i just call this bet, I really have no idea what BB has.I often bet/raise the flop for information. I think it gives me the chance to win the pot right there, and it gives me more information about the holding BB has. A while back though, there was a trend of hands that concluded with the fact that people felt I often bet too often "for information." Do you think this is one of those times?
To clarify, I would raise on the flop - in fact, I would have played the hand exactly as you did. What I didn't agree with was when you said (in the initial post, after you got reraised on the flop): "I intend to check call down the rest of this hand just in case BB is trying to push me around with say J's or Q's".After I raise on the flop, my plan is to call if BB reraises, and then fold any non-A or J turn (since I'm probably drawing to 3 outs, and I'll have odds to peel for one small bet here, but not on the turn if I miss).If you're going to call down regardless of what comes on the turn, I don't see a point to raising the flop. "Raising for information" only makes sense if you can trust the information enough to make use of it (in this case, by folding a blank turn rather than making a -EV calldown).
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After I raise on the flop, my plan is to call if BB reraises, and then fold any non-A or J turn (since I'm probably drawing to 3 outs, and I'll have odds to peel for one small bet here, but not on the turn if I miss).If you're going to call down regardless of what comes on the turn, I don't see a point to raising the flop. "Raising for information" only makes sense if you can trust the information enough to make use of it (in this case, by folding a blank turn rather than making a -EV calldown).
Well, if the turn blanks and I assume I am drawing to three outs, I'm getting 11:1 on my money for the turn bet if I assume LP2 will still call, so I see your point. Ray
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What concerns me though is this:
BB's raise was concerning. Still, getting 8:1 (I am 100% sure LP2 will call) I feel I should call.
Do you ever call preflop, get raised 1 more bet and fold before the flop comes?
If you call being the big blind calling, then yes. Otherwise, no. But if its folded to the SB and he raises and I have something joyous like 82o, I just give it up.That comment was mainly to highlight that I think I may be beat even preflop, but that pot odds are good for me. For the guy who votes for calling the flop bet, I'd like to discuss more, because my big issue is, if i just call this bet, I really have no idea what BB has.I often bet/raise the flop for information. I think it gives me the chance to win the pot right there, and it gives me more information about the holding BB has. A while back though, there was a trend of hands that concluded with the fact that people felt I often bet too often "for information." Do you think this is one of those times?Ray
What he meant (i think) is, do you ever open for a raise and then fold to the 3rd bet preflop? Because by the sound of your explanation, you do.
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What he meant (i think) is, do you ever open for a raise and then fold to the 3rd bet preflop? Because by the sound of your explanation, you do.
Nope, its bad wording on my part I guess because I was trying to explain the pot odds in the original post.I can think of no situation where I open raise, then fold for one more bet.Ray
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