a helmuthian laydown

[freak2304 0]

How do you guys think Ethier played his hand? Anyone call with the aces and hope to drag another player along?

It seems like if the 3rd raiser just flat calls, there's NO WAY K's doesn't at least call or push back over the top all-in himself. I'm assuming A's figured K's would have to call with almost any pair over 10's there, hence the all-in bet.

[bdc30 0]

It seems like if the 3rd raiser just flat calls, there's NO WAY K's doesn't at least call or push back over the top all-in himself.

I'm betting he pushes about 95% of the time with the cold call by the guy with aces. That I think was the right play in this case.

[PMJackson21 0]

It seems like if the 3rd raiser just flat calls, there's NO WAY K's doesn't at least call or push back over the top all-in himself.

I'm betting he pushes about 95% of the time with the cold call by the guy with aces. That I think was the right play in this case.

I think you guys are missing the fact that the KK had less chips then the KT guy (at least by Billy's math), so there was no way for KK to push over the top of anyone once KT was all in. The AA guy's play of moving all-in was to keep other players at the table out of the hand, not KK. If AA flat calls, then KK will still have to call off his chips.Perhaps KK might have felt more secure with his hand if AA just flat calls, and would have called the all in, but I think in that situation the flat call would worry me mroe then a re-raise (unless I knew AA would only play that hand, that way).Patrick

[bdc30 0]

True PM.Accurate chip counts would make a big difference here.

[nritchi3 0]

Don't jump on a guy just because he doesn't play at the stakes you do.

I never said I played at stakes any higher than this, I just said thatlaying down Kings in a $5 sit n'go was ludicrous.The words "very tight player" and "$5 Sit n' Go" should neverbe used in the same sentence.

I gotta agree with bdc on this one i play the $20 sng's on pstars and i would never and i mean never lay down KK preflop. ( well maybe if there was 6 people all in before me i would) People will push with AK AJ A3 88 22 pretty much anything. So you can imagine how much worse it is at the $5 level.

[PMJackson21 0]

True PM.Accurate chip counts would make a big difference here.

Yup, very much so. Although Billy said he doubled up after starting the day at 49k, which would put him around 100k, he might have been stealing blinds left and right, and winning small pots that CP didn't report. So, he might have had a good deal more then 100k at the point of this hand, or he might even had less.Patrick

[ICrushHomeGames 0]

Hellmuthian laydown? Please. The guy i'm sure has made so many bad laydowns with top pair in tourneys and has been pushed around so much. I hate people who praise him for being right once with AK on A 44 Q board.

Some people have monster tells. I'm gonna bet that the AA guy is one of them.

Exactly. I doubt this guy wasn't paying any attention to the hand and then looked down in to find KK with 2 all-ins in front of him as last to act. If it's that simple, it's an easy push. He obviously picked up on something because he folded face-up.

[PMJackson21 0]

How about this laydown?Date / Time: 2006-01-31 14:36:00 Title: Don Mullis Makes A Big Laydown Log: With a board of J-6-4-9-5, Don bets $50,000 into a pot of of around $250,000. Michael Mizrachi reraises $500,000 more. Mullis goes into the tank and finally calls the clock on himself (this seems to be the trend today). He finally lays down pocket jacks face-up. "The Grinder" mucks his cards and rakes the pot. He has to put him on exactly 3-7 or 7-8 with no flush possibilities mentioned, and the Grinder made a massive overbet.Patrick

[theredpill99 0]

And he folds KK face up? How annoying. Stop folding your cards face up. That is extremely annoying. I WANT ATTENTION , PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO ME AND LOOK AT MY GREAT LAYDOWN.

[KowboyKoop 0]

How about this laydown?Date / Time: 2006-01-31 14:36:00 Title: Don Mullis Makes A Big Laydown Log: With a board of J-6-4-9-5, Don bets $50,000 into a pot of of around $250,000. Michael Mizrachi reraises $500,000 more. Mullis goes into the tank and finally calls the clock on himself (this seems to be the trend today). He finally lays down pocket jacks face-up. "The Grinder" mucks his cards and rakes the pot. He has to put him on exactly 3-7 or 7-8 with no flush possibilities mentioned, and the Grinder made a massive overbet.Patrick

Wow. Probably an atrocious laydown............no way I get away from that sh*t.

[Longshanks 0]

wouldent people be bluffing the hell outta those guys?

[HurricaneKyle 0]

Helmuth's quote is (in my opinion) one of the gayest moments in TV poker ever.

I have to agree with this. If I was at the table, I would have had a hard time not laughing my head off. [/code]

[HoosierAlum 0]

I thought Arias's laydown there was pretty bad, regardless of whether the other player had aces. I guess the extra 2000 he got from moving from what would have been 32nd (he had fewer chips than Either) to 28th (which is what he ended up getting) made it seem better, but if he wanted to win, laying kings was very poor.It is reasonable to assume that Arias had around 100k heading into the hand. He had 49k at the start and doubled early, so 100k is a decent assumption. Average with 33 left was 288k, assume with a knockout the average is now about 300k. His bet of 24k commits a quarter of his stack, there is an all in behind him, and then an isolation raise all in. He is looking at calling 75kish into what is a 225k main pot with KK, so about 3:1 on his money. I think that this is a situation where you take the chance to double to get to an average stack with the second best hand in the deck, even if 90% of the time you are taking a 80:20 the wrong way (and I think that that 90% number is a little high). Folding leaves you with 1/4 of an average stack, and in the bottom 3 of the field.

I am not good enough to fold kings preflop, and neither are you.

Perfect summary. I personally thought the laydown was horrendous. Of course playing results people say "Amazing Laydown". It was actually terrible.

[Guest]

it was a nice lay down but nothing extraordinary. At that level, with 3 raises, it is possible to get away from KK and try to re-group later on.

[dapokerbum 0]

And he folds KK face up? How annoying. Stop folding your cards face up. That is extremely annoying. I WANT ATTENTION , PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO ME AND LOOK AT MY GREAT LAYDOWN.

Don't you realize that most times people fold face up is to get their opponent to show their cards. This is to see if they have the read they think they do if not oh well at least you gave information. Dont you realize how much of a mind **** poker is when it comes to pros.

[Canuckickstan 2]

And he folds KK face up? How annoying. Stop folding your cards face up. That is extremely annoying. I WANT ATTENTION , PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO ME AND LOOK AT MY GREAT LAYDOWN.

Thus It's a Helmuthian laydown!!

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

How about this laydown?Date / Time: 2006-01-31 14:36:00 Title: Don Mullis Makes A Big Laydown Log: With a board of J-6-4-9-5, Don bets $50,000 into a pot of of around $250,000. Michael Mizrachi reraises $500,000 more. Mullis goes into the tank and finally calls the clock on himself (this seems to be the trend today). He finally lays down pocket jacks face-up. "The Grinder" mucks his cards and rakes the pot. He has to put him on exactly 3-7 or 7-8 with no flush possibilities mentioned, and the Grinder made a massive overbet.Patrick

That's horrendous. You don't think the Grinder makes that bet with 66, 55, 44, 99, or any combination of two pair or an over pair? Or maybe the horrendously bad 50k bet into a 250k pot just screamed, "I DON'T REALLY FEEL VERY GOOD ABOUT HAVING PLAYED TOP SET THIS WEAKLY SO I'M GOING TO JUST BASICALLY INVITE YOU TO COME OVER THE TOP AND THEN I'LL FOLD AND WHEN I SHOW YOU MY SET YOU CAN SAY 'NICE LAY DOWN' AND I'LL FEEL BETTER AS YOU MUCK YOUR RAGGEDY TWO PAIR!!"..cause that's kinda what it sounds like to me.Two hands beat him and SOOOOOOOOO many more that the Grinder makes that move with--including air.

[sholden 0]

And he folds KK face up? How annoying. Stop folding your cards face up. That is extremely annoying. I WANT ATTENTION , PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO ME AND LOOK AT MY GREAT LAYDOWN.

Don't you realize that most times people fold face up is to get their opponent to show their cards. This is to see if they have the read they think they do if not oh well at least you gave information. Dont you realize how much of a mind censored poker is when it comes to pros.

Except that since there's already two all-in players you get to see the cards anyway.

[Jdr999 0]

What hands can we put the player who re-raised all-in after a raise and a re-raise. For me it's only A-A, K-K, A-K and Q-Q. All depends on the player who made this play.Also, online this would be an easy call IMO, but with phyiscal movement and tells in a live tournament, it would be hard to fold, but not impossible.

[iggymcfly 0]

The KK laydown's questionable. If he had a relatively large stack and a really strong read, it might have been good. He's been playing with this guy for hours, if he picks up something that lets him know he's up against AA, then certainly he should fold.The JJ laydown's just ridiculous though. He has the nuts til the river when a gutshot comes in, and then he decides to weak lead/fold. That might be the worst line I've ever seen. I can't imagine how he'd put Mizrachi on specifically a gutshot there.

[Project 69 0]

Come on guys, he folded KK preflop against AA, that is the absolute best laydown possible. He's obviously clairvoyant or something, definitely not a bad player and definitely NOT a bad laydown! Who are you guys kidding (the ones who think it was stupid)?

[Spademan 94]

As an admitted Hellmuth hater, this is a biased opinion, but his performance at the FTs the last two WSOP TOCs was, well, indicative of how he plays.  Especially this past years (where the hand by hand log is available), you can just see Corkins crushing him repeatedly.  Phil's unwillingness to gamble (and his phenominal reading ability to lay AQ when Corkins had AA) cost him the latest TOC.  At last year's TOC (the 2 mil STT) he complained afterwards about Annie consistently coming over the top of him......well maybe, if he would ever make a stand at a point when he has a decent amount of chips, he might have had a shot.

As a fellow Hellmuth hater, as to personality, I disagree, as to play.He outplayed Hoyt though it looked like he got ran over, and the hands he didn't take a stand on vs Annie, he was behind.He appears too weak, but with his remarkable reads and general ability, he can afford to gamble less than almost any other player in the world.He is top 5 NL tourn player, and top 5 tool shed.

[ShieldWolf 0]

>>As an admitted Hellmuth hater, this is a biased opinion, but his performance at the FTs the last two WSOP TOCs was, well, indicative of how he plays. Especially this past years (where the hand by hand log is available), you can just see Corkins crushing him repeatedly. Phil's unwillingness to gamble (and his phenominal reading ability to lay AQ when Corkins had AA) cost him the latest TOC. At last year's TOC (the 2 mil STT) he complained afterwards about Annie consistently coming over the top of him......well maybe, if he would ever make a stand at a point when he has a decent amount of chips, he might have had a shot.<<There's one problem with making a stand. Almost every time, Annie Duke was holding onto a superior hand. Hellmuth had to lay down top pair heads up quite a few times because he was outkicked, or up against two pair and better. Annie kept coming over the top because she was always very strong. Hellmuth finally did make a stand with 10-8 when he flopped top pair again (10)...and once again, Annie had him outkiced. Had the hands been reversed in their dealings you can be sure Annie would have been out within 10 min.

[Bizzle 0]

There's one problem with making a stand.  Almost every time, Annie Duke was holding onto a superior hand.  Hellmuth had to lay down top pair heads up quite a few times because he was outkicked, or up against two pair and better.  Annie kept coming over the top because she was always very strong.  Hellmuth finally did make a stand with 10-8 when he flopped top pair again (10)...and once again, Annie had him outkiced.  Had the hands been reversed in their dealings you can be sure Annie would have been out within 10 min.

Not quite sure how you dug this up 10 days after I posted it but-I don't know if you remember the details, but Annie was up a decent amount (like 1.3mil to .7 mil) He doubled with trips, and the chip counts reversed. They went to commercial...and all of a sudden Phil had 1.1mil. Annie won a pot, they went to commercial...Phil had .8 mil. Annie won another pot, they went to commercial...Phil had .6 mil. Then .5 mil.He mentioned during his rant that she was "continuously coming over him, like 7 or 8 times." We didn't see all those hands, and I can only assume (although it is a good assumption) that Annie didn't have a legit hand every time. I thought it was telling that Annie ate the cooler (trips HU with a lower kicker is like a death knell) and she still won.Just my opinion, it isn't gods word. Of course, since Spade is done, there is no god's word.

[Norhas99 0]

I thought Arias's laydown there was pretty bad, regardless of whether the other player had aces.  I guess the extra 2000 he got from moving from what would have been 32nd (he had fewer chips than Either) to 28th (which is what he ended up getting) made it seem better, but if he wanted to win, laying kings was very poor.It is reasonable to assume that Arias had around 100k heading into the hand.  He had 49k at the start and doubled early, so 100k is a decent assumption.  Average with 33 left was 288k, assume with a knockout the average is now about 300k.  His bet of 24k commits a quarter of his stack, there is an all in behind him, and then an isolation raise all in.  He is looking at calling 75kish into what is a 225k main pot with KK, so about 3:1 on his money.  I think that this is a situation where you take the chance to double to get to an average stack with the second best hand in the deck, even if 90% of the time you are taking a 80:20 the wrong way (and I think that that 90% number is a little high).  Folding leaves you with 1/4 of an average stack, and in the bottom 3 of the field.

I am not good enough to fold kings preflop, and neither are you.

Whatever. It wasnt a good nor a bad laydown. When you play tons (1000+) a the most, you will lay down AA preflop more than you can count on two hands...KK would be an easier decision.