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should i stop playing holdem mtts?


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So i've played more than a hundred holdem MTTs and despite my best efforts I have not made a final table. I played a $3 MTT tonight and it was typical: I'm all in with KK, guy calls with AJ (J high flop) river is a J and I'm out. I'm tired of this...The good news is that since becoming frustrated with holdem I've started playing other MTTs and have had a crazy amount of success. I've made four final tables this month (1st in stud limit, 6th in omaha hi, 4th in omaha hi, 1st in stud hi/lo) and I'm starting to think I should just give up holdem. I don't know what it is--is it variance? are there better players in the holdem MTTs? is it just that they have smaller fields (usually a few hundred on pstars, as opposed to a thousand for holdem)? or is that i am better at these games?any serious responses appreciated. ok, and any clever flames are good too.

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Yes, you should stop, if you're not making money.I have never come close to not final tabling 100 tourneys in a row.That number almost makes me think your joking.Even exclusively drunk I'll final table a number of tourns in a 100.

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it's possible that 100 is a little high, but if you look me up on pokerdb you will see that I've cashed in like 30 holdem MTTs without a final table (I think 11th or 12th is my highest finish) and I figure that at the very least i've failed to cash in half my holdem MTTs.the thing that I cannot figure out is that I've made most of my money online playing NL holdem SNGs.

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If you enter 100 MTTs with 1,000 players in each you should expect to make one final table of the hundred attempts if your skill is average for those events you enter.Assuming the tourneys you're entering are around the $3 buy-in you should expect to be well above the average in terms of skill. It's possible you're just on a bad streak of variance but it's more likely that there's something in your game that's holding you back.I wouldn't worry so much about how skilled the other players are in any given tourney. What I'd consider is how your skill level compares to that of the typical entrant. Even if you see your opponents have a general idea of how best to play the game, your edge over them may be greater than in another game where your opponents are weak.

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If you enter 100 MTTs with 1,000 players in each you should expect to make one final table of the hundred attempts if your skill is average for those events you enter. No.good luck.
Thanks. Explain why?
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If you enter 100 MTTs with 1,000 players in each you should expect to make one final table of the hundred attempts if your skill is average for those events you enter. No.good luck.
Thanks. Explain why?
ill second that why?1000 players, 1/100 make final table if youre average. it seems obvious to me that you final table evwould be 100 x 1/100 = 1so why wouldnt this be true?
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play cash games man, or at least try.MTTs are no way to play exclusively. Play them for fun if you cant give it up at all. Limit at .5/1 for Party is pretty simple, hang around the Limit strat section for a month or two, read SSHE and beat that game first. It'll change the way to understand the game (in a good way).

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Your tourney skills are obviously pretty good if youre doing well in the other games. You may have a bigger edge in terms of the knowledge of the other games which is translating to success.Build a bankroll in the other games, then try some higher buy in holdem MTTs.As far as probability of making the final table, it has nothing to do with the prize structure. If its equal skill all around then its cards only, which should lead to 10/n (or 9/n) final tables.The prize structure affects the value of making it, not the probability of making it.

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super low buy in tournaments are sometimes harder to win then other tournaments. People often play hyper aggressive, and if you are tight you might get left in the dust chip stack wise. Plus, a larger field requires you to get lucky a few time to win.

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super low buy in tournaments are sometimes harder to win then other tournaments. People often play hyper aggressive, and if you are tight you might get left in the dust chip stack wise. Plus, a larger field requires you to get lucky a few time to win.
I know all about that. Might sound shocking but it actually might be harder to win a super low buy in tournament than a bigger buy in tournament.
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super low buy in tournaments are sometimes harder to win then other tournaments. People often play hyper aggressive, and if you are tight you might get left in the dust chip stack wise. Plus, a larger field requires you to get lucky a few time to win.
I know all about that. Might sound shocking but it actually might be harder to win a super low buy in tournament than a bigger buy in tournament.
It is like tring to win a freeroll. Nobody takes it serious for the first hour, then people might try to play better. It is easier to play a live MTT or a least one with a decent buyin online.
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super low buy in tournaments are sometimes harder to win then other tournaments. People often play hyper aggressive, and if you are tight you might get left in the dust chip stack wise. Plus, a larger field requires you to get lucky a few time to win.
I know all about that. Might sound shocking but it actually might be harder to win a super low buy in tournament than a bigger buy in tournament.
It is like tring to win a freeroll. Nobody takes it serious for the first hour, then people might try to play better. It is easier to play a live MTT or a least one with a decent buyin online.
Very true. They're just in there the first hour to either get lucky or leave. The effort they put in is comical. People just dont give a shit. If you can get a hand or two then you'll double up without trying but you DEFINITELY need to catch cards in the first hour to have a shot. In the bigger buy in tournaments, you can sit back and play good poker and not need to catch cards because people respect raises a lot more and they give you enough chips that you don't have to catch a lot of cards to win.
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super low buy in tournaments are sometimes harder to win then other tournaments. People often play hyper aggressive, and if you are tight you might get left in the dust chip stack wise. Plus, a larger field requires you to get lucky a few time to win.
I know all about that. Might sound shocking but it actually might be harder to win a super low buy in tournament than a bigger buy in tournament.
It is like tring to win a freeroll. Nobody takes it serious for the first hour, then people might try to play better. It is easier to play a live MTT or a least one with a decent buyin online.
Very true. They're just in there the first hour to either get lucky or leave. The effort they put in is comical. People just dont give a shit. If you can get a hand or two then you'll double up without trying but you DEFINITELY need to catch cards in the first hour to have a shot. In the bigger buy in tournaments, you can sit back and play good poker and not need to catch cards because people respect raises a lot more and they give you enough chips that you don't have to catch a lot of cards to win.
It is interesting that you are guys are saying this because I've thought the exact same thing myself. I have gotten unlucky with coinflips etc. at the end of holdem tourneys, but a big problem is that in $3 or $5 tourneys when there are 100 or 150 people left I usually have about half the average chip stack, and there are a number of hyperaggresive people that are chip leaders. I've heard the suggestion that I should try higher buyin holdem tournaments (maybe a $50) and I've thought of doing it, but then I think--why am I buying in for a $50 MTT when I can't even make a FT in a $2? I would appreciate feedback on this question from anyone.
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I've heard the suggestion that I should try higher buyin holdem tournaments (maybe a $50) and I've thought of doing it, but then I think--why am I buying in for a $50 MTT when I can't even make a FT in a $2? I would appreciate feedback on this question from anyone.
You dont need to jump to $50s. A good alternative is the PokerStars 180 seat sit n gos for $20. TAG play works in these, and will give you a better feel whether its your holdem skills that are deficient.
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super low buy in tournaments are sometimes harder to win then other tournaments. People often play hyper aggressive, and if you are tight you might get left in the dust chip stack wise. Plus, a larger field requires you to get lucky a few time to win.
I know all about that. Might sound shocking but it actually might be harder to win a super low buy in tournament than a bigger buy in tournament.
It is like tring to win a freeroll. Nobody takes it serious for the first hour, then people might try to play better. It is easier to play a live MTT or a least one with a decent buyin online.
Very true. They're just in there the first hour to either get lucky or leave. The effort they put in is comical. People just dont give a shit. If you can get a hand or two then you'll double up without trying but you DEFINITELY need to catch cards in the first hour to have a shot. In the bigger buy in tournaments, you can sit back and play good poker and not need to catch cards because people respect raises a lot more and they give you enough chips that you don't have to catch a lot of cards to win.
It is interesting that you are guys are saying this because I've thought the exact same thing myself. I have gotten unlucky with coinflips etc. at the end of holdem tourneys, but a big problem is that in $3 or $5 tourneys when there are 100 or 150 people left I usually have about half the average chip stack, and there are a number of hyperaggresive people that are chip leaders. I've heard the suggestion that I should try higher buyin holdem tournaments (maybe a $50) and I've thought of doing it, but then I think--why am I buying in for a $50 MTT when I can't even make a FT in a $2? I would appreciate feedback on this question from anyone.
Heres my 2 cents: In the $2 buy in tournaments you need a lot of things to go right for you. First of all, you need to catch cards in the first hour, thats just a fact. Trust me, you need to especially in a rebuy tournament. There are people that are so hyper aggressive that you don't have a chance to bluff anybody. Don't worry though because they usually will get knocked out soon after the rebuy period or first hour. The good news is that when you catch a hand, you will almost always get it paid off for a good amount of chips. If theres 2-3 players in the pot, one fo them will usually double you up. What you need to do in the $2, or $5 MTT, is in the first hour, be willing to limp with some suited connectors in the early levels or some small PP to try and catch a big flop because if you do then you'll double up. Don't overuse this play but it should definitely be used very early in very very small buy in MTTs. When you catch a big hand then obviously you will raise preflop and most likely you will win a big pot with it. Just play passively while looking for opportunities to be able to limp with suited connectors or small PP's in position to win a big pot. I would reccomend that maybe you try some $10 buy in MTTs or $20 and see how you do. The very small ones are very hard to beat. Hope I helped you out.
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It is interesting that you are guys are saying this because I've thought the exact same thing myself. I have gotten unlucky with coinflips etc. at the end of holdem tourneys, but a big problem is that in $3 or $5 tourneys when there are 100 or 150 people left I usually have about half the average chip stack, and there are a number of hyperaggresive people that are chip leaders.  I've heard the suggestion that I should try higher buyin holdem tournaments (maybe a $50) and I've thought of doing it, but then I think--why am I buying in for a $50 MTT when I can't even make a FT in a $2? I would appreciate feedback on this question from anyone.
Interesting thread. Your comments in the first paragraph above plus your note about making most of your money in NLTH sng's particularly caught my eye. From my record so far , my performance in NLTH one to five table sngs is decent, my perfomance in NLTH mtt's is dire, but my performance in pot limit TH sng's is much better (several final tables, 1 win, several other cashes). This is predominantly at $10 or less buy ins. Admittedly this is on sample sizes of 50 to 10o per type of event, so it's far short of the 1,000 plus people on here like. However, my conclusions so far to make sense of this apparent inconsistency are:1) Most importantly, my no limit game needs a lot of work.2) I try to be tight aggressive, and this often means that I don't accumulate chips early on.3) Point 2 doesn't seem to matter in 1 to 5 table sng's because the average chip stack increases much more slowly, and tight initial play and aggressive play when the blinds have increased a bit seems a good strategy to get into the money.4) Point 2 is death is no limit mtt's, but doesn't matter so much in pot limit events because of the lack of antes. I often end up having a below average stack, similar to your comment above, but it costs less to be patient and wait for good hands/opportune moments when you get to 100-200 plus blinds in pot limit than in no limit and equally it costs less if you go card dead for a while.If you think that the above might apply to your style at all then my suggestions are:1) Play more loosely early on in low buy in events in an effort to double up quickly or get out. (My only new year's resolution, which I've broken already. )2) Try MTT pot limit events.3) Stick to sng's.4) Try the $20 sng that Copernicus suggested.
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Heres my 2 cents: In the $2 buy in tournaments you need a lot of things to go right for you. First of all, you need to catch cards in the first hour, thats just a fact. Trust me, you need to especially in a rebuy tournament. There are people that are so hyper aggressive that you don't have a chance to bluff anybody. Don't worry though because they usually will get knocked out soon after the rebuy period or first hour.  The good news is that when you catch a hand, you will almost always get it paid off for a good amount of chips. If theres 2-3 players in the pot, one fo them will usually double you up. What you need to do in the $2, or $5 MTT, is in the first hour, be willing to limp with some suited connectors in the early levels or some small PP to try and catch a big flop because if you do then you'll double up. Don't overuse this play but it should definitely be used very early in very very small buy in MTTs.  When you catch a big hand then obviously you will raise preflop and most likely you will win a big pot with it. Just play passively while looking for opportunities to be able to limp with suited connectors or small PP's in position to win a big pot. I would reccomend that maybe you try some $10 buy in MTTs or $20 and see how you do. The very small ones are very hard to beat. Hope I helped you out.
From my experience, that's a pretty good summary of low buy in tournaments. I think that there are two other key point about rebuy tournaments.First, you've got to have enough money to rebuy frequently and quite often play like you want to do that. The first rebuy tournament I played was a pot limit TH one in my local casino a few years ago. (Unfortunately, all the tournaments there are rebuys.) It was a £20 (about US$30) buy in with an hour and a half rebuy period and one add on afterwards. The field ranges from about 45-70 and it's mostly populated by regular players. So, on my first try I had money for my buy in and one rebuy and thought I'd be fine with that. On the very first hand someone said "why don't we all go all in on this hand?" I thought he was joking until five of them did manage to go all in pre-flop, and none of them had a decent hand. That was my "we're going to need a bigger bankroll" introduction to rebuys. It's not impossible to win without rebuying lots (I made 2 final tables and got eliminated on the second one by Peter Costa - probably my poker claim to fame), but it's difficult, since on a good night I'd end the rebuy period with 6* my initial buy in, but be one of the short stacks.Related to that, success in online rebuys seems to largely depend upon what table you're on. If you're on a normal to tightish table then you can certainly accumulate chips in the rebuy period, but nowhere near as much as you could if you're on a loose table. One implication of this is that you can play well, increase your stack significantly in the first hour, but not be much above an average stack (if at all) when the rebuy period ends. In the last online rebuy event I played ($3 buy in) I was chip leader on my table with an above average stack after 30 minutes having increased from 1,500 to nearly 6,000. The table broke and I was moved to the chip leader's table. He had about 45,000 in chips and I was virtually the short stack on the table. People were going all in nearly every hand, I protected my stack (helped by having no cards for half an hour) and then was most definitely the short stack when the tournament proper started, which really restricted my playing options.Anyway, enough drunk ramblings.
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I've heard the suggestion that I should try higher buyin holdem tournaments (maybe a $50) and I've thought of doing it, but then I think--why am I buying in for a $50 MTT when I can't even make a FT in a $2? I would appreciate feedback on this question from anyone.
People who say this are the same idiots who think they'd make more money in cash games if they moved up in limits. It's nonsense. The people who "don't care" in low buy-in MTTs are the reason they're so profitable.
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