nlhe rules question

[dinkis 0]

Very basic rules question. Last home game I played there was an argument, I want to be 100% sure of this for the next game.Preflop:It folds to the SB, who calls the BB. BB checks.Flop:SB bets. BB calls.Turn:Check, check.River:Check, check.The SB turns over one card and says "Top pair." The BB mucks.An observer says he has to show two cards to win. SB claims since the BB mucked, it's his pot.Is he right?Does the rest of the table have the right to see his second card?

[Swift_Psycho 1]

After the BB mucks, the SB automatically gets the pot. It's basically the same as if the SB just announced what he had and the BB mucks: the SB still gets the pot even though he didn't show any cards.If anyone wants to see the other card though, they have the right to ask and then have it revealed.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

According to Robert's rules of Poker:"1. To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards face-up on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not."So, I guess if people demanded to see the whole hand, he would have to turn it over to claim the pot. It's good manners, however, not to demand to see a hand that has been mucked at the showdown and one shouldn't abuse this right. This hand is a bit borderline on this issue, and it would be perfectly understandable and not really bad etiquette to demand to see the entire hand.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

According to Robert's rules of Poker:"1. To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards face-up on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not."So, I guess if people demanded to see the whole hand, he would have to turn it over to claim the pot. It's good manners, however, not to demand to see a hand that has been mucked at the showdown and one shouldn't abuse this right. This hand is a bit borderline on this issue, and it would be perfectly understandable and not really bad etiquette to demand to see the entire hand.

I don't think that the rule you put there is needed here, seeing as the BB just mucked. It would only be needed if the SB showed say his TP and then the BB flipped both his cards face-up and still couldn't beat the TP. The SB would still need to show his second card in order to win. When the BB mucked though, the hand was over. Though, just as in any showdown, any player can ask to see cards that weren't turned face-up, so anyone could ask to see the SB's 2nd card.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

I think you're right. That's basically what I was trying to describe. He should win the pot since he was the only person with a live hand, but the others could demand to see his second card if they really wanted. Right?

[Swift_Psycho 1]

I think you're right. That's basically what I was trying to describe. He should win the pot since he was the only person with a live hand, but the others could demand to see his second card if they really wanted. Right?

Yeah, I believe we're in agreement.

[dinkis 0]

This was sort of the controversy in our game.The SB actually argued he didn't have to show his second card after the BB mucked. When I asked to see his second card he said No. He claimed that he didn't need a live hand to win the pot because the BB mucked, even though the BB (technically) did so out of turn.I sort of agree with him now that I've thought about it more.Imagine this situation:The SB declares verbally "Top pair." BB mucks. Now does SB have to show his hand?Logically (to me anyway) the answer should be the same for both situations.I think you would agree in situation 2, SB would not have to show his cards. Agree?

[sloshr 0]

he still has to show his cards if someone asks. there is a showdown, so anyone can ask to see any hand. in fact, in some games, if he shows his cards and they are worse than top pair, the player who mucked would be awarded the pot, as the "winner"s hand would be dead for deliberately miscalling it.

[pckt10s 0]

There was a recent cardplayer article where, this was discussed. I believe the article was saying that another player had to have a reason to ask to see the cards (collusion). I may be wrong but I am sure it's different depending on the floorman, as you know every floorman says something different at different times depending on the situation.

[rp_Froggy 0]

There was a recent cardplayer article where, this was discussed. I believe the article was saying that another player had to have a reason to ask to see the cards (collusion). I may be wrong but I am sure it's different depending on the floorman, as you know every floorman says something different at different times depending on the situation.

I was playing a WSOP Circuit back in September and bluffed at the pot. When the caller showed his hand I mucked and the caller took down the hand.An ass at the table that was not involved in the hand wanted to see my cards. I was bullying the table a bit at that time and he simply wanted to see my hand to gain info. The dealer called the floor and the flloor explained to ass that the rule was in fact open to any player in any hand, but was there to protect players against collussion. Ass said, "I don't care, I want to see his hand". They then proceeded to pull cards out of the muck until they determined which were mine.Pissed everyone at the table off and ultimately caused us all to play to eliminate the tool. Not collude, just not do anything to allow the guy to have a chance in a a multiway pot.Basically, don't be a jerk and use the rule unless you have a good reason. Cusriousity and gaining an unfair advantage is not a good reason!

[dinkis 0]

So at Showdown you technically (though not ethically) have the right to see EVERY hand?What if it's heads up at the end of a tournament? If it gets to showdown I can see his hand? There's no threat of collusion.This is creating more questions than answers for me...So what if it was me and player B heads up for the tournament. I bet the flop, he calls. We check it down. Showdown: I show one card for top pair. He mucks.Can I look at his cards? Can he still demand to see my second card after he mucks?

[dead money 1]

In order to win a hand at a showdown, you must show BOTH of your holecards. I hate this. It isnt hard to understand. People always try to get away with it. Even if your opponent mucks, you must show BOTH cards to win the pot. Ive learned that if you become a jerk about the rules, you will be better off. There will be no confusion. Not everybody will like it, but you will always be fair if you always follow the rules. So, learn all the rules and enforce them. The cleaner a game runs, the less problems you will have.

[dead money 1]

So at Showdown you technically (though not ethically) have the right to see EVERY hand?What if it's heads up at the end of a tournament? If it gets to showdown I can see his hand? There's no threat of collusion.This is creating more questions than answers for me...So what if it was me and player B heads up for the tournament. I bet the flop, he calls. We check it down. Showdown: I show one card for top pair. He mucks.Can I look at his cards? Can he still demand to see my second card after he mucks?

You only have the right to see hands that went to a showdown. You cant ask to see hands of people who folded preflop. You can technically ask to see a hand when it is heads up and it has gone to showdown. But I wouldnt advise this. In a tournament, the tournament director will probably tell you that doing this is not a good idea. He may also issue you a warning for abusing this privilige. You could also get a time out.

[finztotheleft 0]

he still has to show his cards if someone asks. there is a showdown, so anyone can ask to see any hand. in fact, in some games, if he shows his cards and they are worse than top pair, the player who mucked would be awarded the pot, as the "winner"s hand would be dead for deliberately miscalling it.

No, he should not have mucked it until he made sure the other guy had the winner.

[sloshr 0]

he still has to show his cards if someone asks. there is a showdown, so anyone can ask to see any hand. in fact, in some games, if he shows his cards and they are worse than top pair, the player who mucked would be awarded the pot, as the "winner"s hand would be dead for deliberately miscalling it.

No, he should not have mucked it until he made sure the other guy had the winner.

In most places, you're right. But like I said, in some cardrooms, the mucked hand would be declared the winner. Also, if you get technical, and read the actual rules, this is often the case. I guy who says flush, but doesn't have a flush can have his hand killed, with the guy who believed him and mucked getting his cards back and winning. Know the rules where you play. That is important advise.