bad beat?

[KVOM 0]

I played quite a bit yesterday, but ended up negative because of one hand.I held J1096 in unraised BB, and flop was JJ6. I made a half pot bet and had one caller. Turn was a 3. I made a pot bet and it was repotted to me. Villain and I had about the same number of chips. Calling the turn was half my remaining stack, so if I call I am pot commited.Turns out villain had A2J6. River was a 4 and I was quartered.I think I have to lose the money here; I didn't have any read on the other player.

[socdave 0]

I think anyone here puts their money in as well. The only way you could get away from the hand was if you put the other player on the case J and 1 of the 2 remaining 6's. I know personally, I couldn't make a read like that. He had to have 2 exact cards to tie you, with only 3 of them left in the deck. It is unfortunate that he hit his runner runner low, but if 2 cards come that are higher than a 6, are you going to be as confident with your full house when it is no longer the nuts? When the villain repotted it to you on the turn, I think something should be going off in your head that he's got a strong hand, I just dont think you can put him on something like this.

[ThatPkrGuy 0]

I don't think you have a choice to fold here really.Sometimes you gotta pay them off. Its similar to hold to full against quads. Not much you can do but pay them off.Def a bad beat.

[ThatPkrGuy 0]

just be glad the river didn't bring the A for him to scoop.

[KVOM 0]

Of course 10 or 9 means I scoop.

[ThatPkrGuy 0]

Of course 10 or 9 means I scoop.

Just saying it could have been worse lol. Always sucks to be practically freerolled on when you have the nuts.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Definately seems like a bad beat, but based on the starting hands, I wouldn't consider it one. Yes, you got quartered on the high side, which happens far less frequently than on the low, however, you happened to get a favorable flop for your bad hand. 8)

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

It's not a bad beat, really, it's called free-rolling/3/4ing.If you had Ac2h8h8c on a 3c4c8d flop and your villian had 259Tr, both players' money moved in on the flop and the river brought an Ace, that's a bad beat.

However, the most important reason PLO8 games exist as much as they do online is: a high percentage of online poker players drastically overestimate their skill level. While this is true of all games online, this overestimation is more concentrated in big bet games. Mediocre players suddenly think they are God's gift to poker, the second coming of Bret Maverick, when confronted with the pseudo-complexities of PLO8 -- lots of cards, variable/progressive betting. It's one thing to be a mediocre juggler. It's another thing indeed to be a mediocre juggler who insists on juggling seven flaming machetes. (The other place online where mediocre players drastically overate themselves is at head-up games.)So, the first thing to understand about online PLO8 games is many of your opponents have poor judgment in terms of true value. People with poor value skills are good people to play against in big bet poker. That understanding should underlie everything you do in the game.

Overplaying one-dimensional hand OOP in a two-dimensional game is a good way to lose money.

[yeffy 0]

Overplaying one-dimensional hand OOP in a two-dimensional game is a good way to lose money.

I don't think you can call flopping the stone cold nuts with no low draw on board and getting the rest of the money in on the turn, still holding the nuts, "overplaying a one-dimensional hand"

[ThatPkrGuy 0]

Overplaying one-dimensional hand OOP in a two-dimensional game is a good way to lose money.

I don't think you can call flopping the stone cold nuts with no low draw on board and getting the rest of the money in on the turn, still holding the nuts, "overplaying a one-dimensional hand"

Agreed.Show me someone who folds that hand on the turn because they think they may be betting 3/4'd and i'll show you someone who is over tight.

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

Hmm, ok, that's just very unfortunate bad beat, there's nothing you can do and that's poker, right?

[Wintermute 0]

Hmm, ok, that's just very unfortunate bad beat, there's nothing you can do and that's poker, right?

Jackingoff_suit, you are very obviously a retard. I doubt that you are even a winning PLO8 player, unless you don't follow the advice you write for others.And the best/most pathetic part about it is the undeserved tone of superiority you take in your posts.

[Rocketwadster 0]

here we go again...first it was smash vs wintermute, not jacking off vs wintermute...

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

Hmm, ok, that's just very unfortunate bad beat, there's nothing you can do and that's poker, right?

Jackingoff_suit, you are very obviously a retard. I doubt that you are even a winning PLO8 player, unless you don't follow the advice you write for others.And the best/most pathetic part about it is the undeserved tone of superiority you take in your posts.

I am actually laughing out loud at my office when I saw this. What happened to you, too much hookers and drink? Why aren't your post all CAPPED? (I am just kidding man)WM, I am speaking this out of my own experience, there were several instances where I was in BB when I flopped the nut high with no low draws, either I won a tiny pot, or I got 1/4ed when I was against mustafa (whom I considered the best PLO8 player at Stars).Yes I know you can't assume villain is some poker god like you or ribbo, but you can't assume you are against a total fish when you just sit down on your first hand.What do you think the villain had when the flop is JJ6 and BB bet and villain called? Unless he's a fucking retard (like me as you said)! Also, you need to pray your boat still holds up at the end.Speaking strickly of this hand in this situation, I would rather have 678J rather than A26J.Yeah I am not a winning poker player, thank you for the .... (here we go again)

[Wintermute 0]

My point is this: your responses in this thread suggest that something *other* then getting all the chips possible in on the flop and turn is a better option. That is utterly wrong.On top of that, the condescending tone you use to imply an alternate, necessarily horrible line on the hand magnifies your wrongness; it is evident that you fully believe in your ass-backwards approach to this scenario (ie, that you think it's "not close").Perhaps the leap to "you are not a winning player" is an unfair one, but in my experience, someone who is so wrong (yet so sure of himself) about such an easy hand to play correctly is commonly a shitty player.

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

My point is this:  your responses in this thread suggest that something *other* then getting all the chips possible in on the flop and turn is a better option.  That is utterly wrong.On top of that, the condescending tone you use to imply an alternate, necessarily horrible line on the hand magnifies your wrongness; it is evident that you fully believe in your ass-backwards approach to this scenario (ie, that you think it's "not close").Perhaps the leap to "you are not a winning player" is an unfair one, but in my experience, someone who is so wrong (yet so sure of himself) about such an easy hand to play correctly is commonly a censored player.

No no no no no, WM, you missed my points.1. If you bet on the flop on BB, the only actions you will get is either get everyone folded and you win a tiny chicken pot, or you will get everyone else folded and the only one with the J called and probably freerolling on you.2. I am not afraid of getting overrun by a higher boat, I have no worry about 2 to 5, 6, 9, T, or J. Only 7, 8, Q, K will fuck up my boat if someone happens to have J7, J8, JQ, or JK, or JA, and I am not afraid of the two outters for QQ, KK, or AA(which is less likely).3. Given point 1 and 2, again, if you bet half of the pot on the flop as our hero did, the only caller is more likely have J and freerolling on you. My play here on the flop is to get many players stay as possible, let them fight for the low and I will profit from the high, in general.4. Again, I stand-by that this is not a bad beat, it's just freerolling. The moral of this story? Never overplay your hand OOP, you either win a small pot or got fucked by freerolling/ 3 quartering. If you have an almost unbeatable high against a bunch of losers, keep them in, let them get themselves 1/4'd instead of you. I know I didn't state those points at the first place, but what do I get in return? So I only like to give genreal pointers but leaving the specific details like how to play each hand on each streeet.

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

One more point, if you just passively chck-calling on the flop and turn, you keep the pot small and by the river if you think your boat still good, you give them an element of surprise.I understand that you don't want to give free rides to the low draws, but if you scoop on the flop, you win a tiny pot, and if you split a pot, you are still winning a tiny pot. But if you get to 1/4 the others on the low, you win a much decent pot.

[Wintermute 0]

My point is this: your responses in this thread suggest that something *other* then getting all the chips possible in on the flop and turn is a better option. That is utterly wrong.On top of that, the condescending tone you use to imply an alternate, necessarily horrible line on the hand magnifies your wrongness; it is evident that you fully believe in your ass-backwards approach to this scenario (ie, that you think it's "not close").Perhaps the leap to "you are not a winning player" is an unfair one, but in my experience, someone who is so wrong (yet so sure of himself) about such an easy hand to play correctly is commonly a censored player.

No no no no no, WM, you missed my points.1. If you bet on the flop on BB, the only actions you will get is either get everyone folded and you win a tiny chicken pot, or you will get everyone else folded and the only one with the J called and probably freerolling on you.2. I am not afraid of getting overrun by a higher boat, I have no worry about 2 to 5, 6, 9, T, or J. Only 7, 8, Q, K will fuck up my boat if someone happens to have J7, J8, JQ, or JK, or JA, and I am not afraid of the two outters for QQ, KK, or AA(which is less likely).3. Given point 1 and 2, again, if you bet half of the pot on the flop as our hero did, the only caller is more likely have J and freerolling on you. My play here on the flop is to get many players stay as possible, let them fight for the low and I will profit from the high, in general.4. Again, I stand-by that this is not a bad beat, it's just freerolling. The moral of this story? Never overplay your hand OOP, you either win a small pot or got fucked by freerolling/ 3 quartering. If you have an almost unbeatable high against a bunch of losers, keep them in, let them get themselves 1/4'd instead of you. I know I didn't state those points at the first place, but what do I get in return? So I only like to give genreal pointers but leaving the specific details like how to play each hand on each streeet.

Ah. I never saw it that way, you are right.

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

My point is this: your responses in this thread suggest that something *other* then getting all the chips possible in on the flop and turn is a better option. That is utterly wrong.On top of that, the condescending tone you use to imply an alternate, necessarily horrible line on the hand magnifies your wrongness; it is evident that you fully believe in your ass-backwards approach to this scenario (ie, that you think it's "not close").Perhaps the leap to "you are not a winning player" is an unfair one, but in my experience, someone who is so wrong (yet so sure of himself) about such an easy hand to play correctly is commonly a censored player.

No no no no no, WM, you missed my points.1. If you bet on the flop on BB, the only actions you will get is either get everyone folded and you win a tiny chicken pot, or you will get everyone else folded and the only one with the J called and probably freerolling on you.2. I am not afraid of getting overrun by a higher boat, I have no worry about 2 to 5, 6, 9, T, or J. Only 7, 8, Q, K will fuck up my boat if someone happens to have J7, J8, JQ, or JK, or JA, and I am not afraid of the two outters for QQ, KK, or AA(which is less likely).3. Given point 1 and 2, again, if you bet half of the pot on the flop as our hero did, the only caller is more likely have J and freerolling on you. My play here on the flop is to get many players stay as possible, let them fight for the low and I will profit from the high, in general.4. Again, I stand-by that this is not a bad beat, it's just freerolling. The moral of this story? Never overplay your hand OOP, you either win a small pot or got fucked by freerolling/ 3 quartering. If you have an almost unbeatable high against a bunch of losers, keep them in, let them get themselves 1/4'd instead of you. I know I didn't state those points at the first place, but what do I get in return? So I only like to give genreal pointers but leaving the specific details like how to play each hand on each streeet.

Ah. I never saw it that way, you are right.

WM, I know you are not convinced and you have some reservations on this, I like to hear some good comments of the opposite instead of just posting "you are wrong, you are a retard, ...." And yes, I respect your posts and your plays, that's why it's worth of my time to post in this thread.

[Rocketwadster 0]

I agree with some of the comments that jackingoff has in there, in that sometimes with a boat it may be far more profitable (and safer) to keep the pot small. I know that I personally have had a couple of flopped boats that were by no means unbeatable on the turn or river, which ended up costing me money when I was the one getting freerolled against. 8)

[Wintermute 0]

No no no no no, WM, you missed my points.1. If you bet on the flop on BB, the only actions you will get is either get everyone folded and you win a tiny chicken pot, or you will get everyone else folded and the only one with the J called and probably freerolling on you.2. I am not  afraid of getting overrun by a higher boat, I have no worry about 2 to 5, 6, 9, T, or J. Only 7, 8, Q, K will fuck up my boat if someone happens to have J7, J8, JQ, or JK, or JA, and I am not afraid of the two outters for QQ, KK, or AA(which is less likely).3. Given point 1 and 2, again, if you bet half of the pot on the flop as our hero did, the only caller is more likely have J and freerolling on you. My play here on the flop is to get many players stay as possible, let them fight for the low and I will profit from the high, in general.4. Again, I stand-by that this is not a bad beat, it's just freerolling. The moral of this story? Never overplay your hand OOP, you either win a small pot or got fucked by freerolling/ 3 quartering. If you have an almost unbeatable high against a bunch of losers, keep them in, let them get themselves 1/4'd instead of you.  I know I didn't state those points at the first place, but what do I get in return? So I only like to give genreal pointers but leaving the specific details like how to play each hand on each streeet.

"Tiny chicken pot" comment... make up your mind. Do you want to play a big pot with OP's hand or a small one. You seem to be advocating pot control here, so how is picking up a small pot bad? I'd prefer to pick up this pot with a bet on the flop than have it check through, a Q falls, all the chips go in and someone turns up QQ."probably freerolling" comment that's all over the place... wrong. So wrong. Sheer combinatorics dictate that's it's MUCH more likely the opponent is drawing with a J and some number of side cards that are above a 6. Or, he is putting in chips w/ 66, or he's a moron with A2 and some pair or something. These are precisely the hands you want to charge at this point to draw out on you. Of the two options (check-raise or lead) I personally prefer to check-raise if possible since the 6 is fairly vulnerable. But that requires some assurance that there will be a bet behind you; if the table is too tight, a lead is correct.You seem fixated on the "bad beat" part of this thread. I personally never once said anything about a bad beat. It is very unfortunate that the villain happened to be freerolling; however, that does not mean we should live in fear of freerolling on a flopped top boat with only one to a low. That contention is positively ridiculous. Your mantra of never overplaying a hand OOP is not bad advice in a vacuum, but it simply does not apply here, the hand is not being overplayed (in fact, if anything it's being underplayed with the half-pot flop bet).Finally, knock it off with garbage like "I know I didn't state those points at the first place, but what do I get in return?" You just called me out for not explaining myself fully, so you're just being hypocritical. Nobody likes to explain simple concepts, but it's a burden that *you* assume by virtue of the fact that you make claims that fly in the face of reason, like c/c'ing this flop being the best play. My advice to you is to stop regurgitating what you read on Steve Badger's website and get some more experience actually playing. If you do that you'll soon see the limitations/non-optimality of his "approach".

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

 "Tiny chicken pot" comment... make up your mind.  Do you want to play a big pot with OP's hand or a small one.  You seem to be advocating pot control here, so how is picking up a small pot bad?  I'd prefer to pick up this pot with a bet on the flop than have it check through, a Q falls, all the chips go in and someone turns up QQ."probably freerolling" comment that's all over the place... wrong.  So wrong.  Sheer combinatorics dictate that's it's MUCH more likely the opponent is drawing with a J and some number of side cards that are above a 6.  Or, he is putting in chips w/ 66, or he's a moron with A2 and some pair or something.  These are precisely the hands you want to charge at this point to draw out on you.  Of the two options (check-raise or lead) I personally prefer to check-raise if possible since the 6 is fairly vulnerable.  But that requires some assurance that there will be a bet behind you; if the table is too tight, a lead is correct.You seem fixated on the "bad beat" part of this thread.  I personally never once said anything about a bad beat.  It is very unfortunate that the villain happened to be freerolling; however, that does not mean we should live in fear of freerolling on a flopped top boat with only one to a low.  That contention is positively ridiculous.  Your mantra of never overplaying a hand OOP is not bad advice in a vacuum, but it simply does not apply here, the hand is not being overplayed (in fact, if anything it's being underplayed with the half-pot flop bet).Finally, knock it off with garbage like "I know I didn't state those points at the first place, but what do I get in return?"  You just called me out for not explaining myself fully, so you're just being hypocritical.  Nobody likes to explain simple concepts, but it's a burden that *you* assume by virtue of the fact that you make claims that fly in the face of reason, like c/c'ing this flop being the best play.  My advice to you is to stop regurgitating what you read on Steve Badger's website and get some more experience actually playing.  If you do that you'll soon see the limitations/non-optimality of his "approach".

Ah. I never saw it that way, you are right. Seriously, thank you for sharing your thoughts, it's something very productive.