cheating at poker - an objective look

[akishore 0]

EDIT: this post was written up before the wrto/stein issue.warning: this is going to be an EXTREMELY controversial topic, so don't read on if you are easily worked up and/or do not want to waste much of your time in the coming weeks.i realize that in the recent past, cheating has been brought up in multiple forms:- russ georgiev (sp?) - his stories about the past, his claims about the present (specifically high-stakes games, live and online), etc.- mike caro - stance of casinos on the cheating issue, whether it's defeatable, how to stop it, etc.- finding a cheater - how you treat them, whether you address it publicly or privately, whether you address it at all, etc.- cheating experiences - whether we have cheated at the past, whether we can beat the game straight-up, whether it's wrong, etc.so i thought this would be a good issue to tackle in a whole new post. i must warn you, though... do NOT flame. i want this to be a purely objective look at cheating, it's effects, possible remedies, and so forth. chances are, someone will disagree with you, and you will disagree with someone, if you post here. but please don't automatically verbally abuse your opponent. let him make his point, and you make yours.with that said, i want to invoke discussion from forum members to answer a couple of questions. i'll give my own answers here, and berate me all you will, but they are the truth (or how i really feel).1. do you have experience cheating? if so, has this affected your outlook on cheating and/or honest poker? are you a better player because of it, or have you become dependant on it? 2. do you believe cheating is immoral? even if it's immoral, do you believe it's wrong? or is it wrong to let a sucker keep his money? e.g. if you can beat the game straight-up, is it wrong to cheat to beat it faster?3. how do you feal cheaters should be--if at all--punished? what would you do / have you done if you find/found a cheater in your game who was a stranger? what if he is/was a best friend?4. how do you think casinos/cardrooms should handle cheating (considering both prevention and reaction)? how do you think home games should handle it? how do you personally, if at all, protect against being cheated from in poker games?i will post my answers in a seperate post. i look forward to an objective discussion.thanks,aseem

[akishore 0]

here are my personal answers:1. i have experience cheating, sadly. am i ashamed of it? completely. why? because i fell in love with it and did it for an extended period of time and cheated my best friends out of a lot of money. the form of cheating i used was simple deck stacking.i would stack myself sets or flopped/turned straights/flushes or top two every time i shuffled. if playing in a shorthanded game (3 or less opponents), i would instead simply memorize my opponent's hole cards by gathering the cards and false shuffling. these weren't big edges in themselves, but when the deck came to me every round, it added up. this allowed me to play very loose/aggressive since i was getting the best of it most of the time i was in a hand. people tired of my play because i would show down only good hands, yet win so many pots uncontested. note that all the games i played in were NL cash games, so it became a HUGE edge.the consequences? i was spotted in my dorm's game as well as my former fraternity's games, and i was kicked out of both. i'm lucky i left with an intact nose, as the guys were my friends and were nice enough to not beat the shit out of me. to make a long story short, i've lost a LOT of friends in my freshman year of college, and i'm ashamed to show my face in many places. if i could go back and do it all over again, would i even consider doing it again for the money? hell no. but do i regret it? no, because i've learned a hard lesson that i would have probably never learned otherwise.in all honesty, however, i have become a better player through it, because by not worrying about whether my cards were good, i got a solid opportunity to study my opponents and understand the psychology of poker more. i picked up on betting patterns easier, i spotted more physical tells, and i got into my opponents' heads more. by not cheating anymore, i have also improved my game tenfold since i have to either have more patience (if tight-aggressive) or have more confidence and better reads (if loose-aggressive).having experienced cheating personally, i myself have drastically changed my outlook on it. before, i used to simply be against cheating--thinking guys like worm were lower than dirt--but now i understand that there is so much more to cheating than on the surface. while i still believe it's wrong, i understand it more. i also seem to sympathize more with cheaters who realize their mistake and have changed (like me).2. when i was cheating, i did not believe it was completely wrong. i believed i could beat the game straight up (cheating and winning tends to inflate your ego and head), so i figured that by cheating, i was simply cleaning up faster. this is NOT true, however. here's why i think that is:deception is part of poker, sure. you bet to say "i have the best hand", but often times, that's not true. so why is cheating and deceiving in that sense wrong? because there are lines and boundaries. within the rules of the game, deceiving by betting is acceptable, but cheating through deck-stacking/signalling/scamming is NOT. if no boundaries were placed, people could hold out on bets if they lost the hand, or they could introduce physical violence into the mix. boundaries exist for a reason, and therefore, cheating is fundamentally wrong.if you say that taking a sucker's money just because he isn't aware of cheating is ok, that's like saying that taking money out of a blind beggar's jar is ok, since he's not aware of it. it's not right, no matter what you may hold against the sucker. if you want to get back at him, get back at him in a fair way, otherwise he's just better than you and your only feelings towards him are based of jealousy.3. expect my answer to be very different, since i've cheated myself and been in the shoes of a cheater who has just been caught--twice. of course that's made me more sympathetic, so i advocate privately addressing the cheater (right after a hand, ask to talk to the guy privately, and tell him what you saw and know, and tell him to stop). call me soft, but it's what i'll do anyday i find a cheater, stranger or friend.4. i think cardrooms and casinos should take a much more active stance against cheating, if what mike caro and russ georgiev say is right. cheating takes away money from both honest players as well as casinos, and the only effect of cheating is to break games and break loyal customers, and it can only lead to the destruction of poker as cheating grows.think about it: poker is a game of luck, and what keeps the fish coming back day after day is that they can having winning sessions. they can win so often, in fact, that they think they can beat the game, and it is on this notion that the professional, honest card player thrives because he relies on these players for slow but steady long-term profit. cheating skews the equations--the cheater wins more than his fair share of pots. this, in turn, breaks the fish faster, and i remember my hardest problem in my time of cheating was finding a regular, easy game. nobody wants to play in a game they can't beat, and casino customers are no different.i think home games should handle it by simply being educated about it, even if it's as little as being able to spot a mechanic's grip. any host should be knowledgeable enough to be able to spot amateur collusion (chip signals and whatnot) and be prepared to handle any cheating he finds. i personally don't have any way to protect myself from being cheated except to just have a little ability to recognize some basic cheating. this might not be enough, but fortunately, the stakes i play at don't attract abundant or expert cheating.thanks,aseem

[Swift_Psycho 1]

warning: this is going to be an EXTREMELY controversial topic, so don't read on if you are easily worked up and/or do not want to waste much of your time in the coming weeks.i realize that in the recent past, cheating has been brought up in multiple forms:- russ georgiev (sp?) - his stories about the past, his claims about the present (specifically high-stakes games, live and online), etc.- mike caro - stance of casinos on the cheating issue, whether it's defeatable, how to stop it, etc.- finding a cheater - how you treat them, whether you address it publicly or privately, whether you address it at all, etc.- cheating experiences - whether we have cheated at the past, whether we can beat the game straight-up, whether it's wrong, etc.so i thought this would be a good issue to tackle in a whole new post. i must warn you, though... do NOT flame. i want this to be a purely objective look at cheating, it's effects, possible remedies, and so forth. chances are, someone will disagree with you, and you will disagree with someone, if you post here. but please don't automatically verbally abuse your opponent. let him make his point, and you make yours.with that said, i want to invoke discussion from forum members to answer a couple of questions. i'll give my own answers here, and berate me all you will, but they are the truth (or how i really feel).1. do you have experience cheating? if so, has this affected your outlook on cheating and/or honest poker? are you a better player because of it, or have you become dependant on it?  2. do you believe cheating is immoral? even if it's immoral, do you believe it's wrong? or is it wrong to let a sucker keep his money? e.g. if you can beat the game straight-up, is it wrong to cheat to beat it faster?3. how do you feal cheaters should be--if at all--punished? what would you do / have you done if you find/found a cheater in your game who was a stranger? what if he is/was a best friend?4. how do you think casinos/cardrooms should handle cheating (considering both prevention and reaction)? how do you think home games should handle it? how do you personally, if at all, protect against being cheated from in poker games?i will post my answers in a seperate post. i look forward to an objective discussion.thanks,aseem

Akishore, I can't remember specifically, but in the past I think that I've strongly disagreed with a couple of your statements/ideas. However, let me compliment you in saying that I think that this was a great one. Now to the questions.1. do you have experience cheating? if so, has this affected your outlook on cheating and/or honest poker? are you a better player because of it, or have you become dependant on it?I've cheated on tests in grade school, but that's as far as I went. I didn't even really like doing it then and stopped after a couple times because it made me sick to think of earning grades that I didn't follow the rules to get. Probably sounds kind of dumb since it was just grade school, but that's how I felt. Poker? Never cheated and never will. Cheating won't make anyone a better poker player.2. do you believe cheating is immoral? even if it's immoral, do you believe it's wrong? or is it wrong to let a sucker keep his money? e.g. if you can beat the game straight-up, is it wrong to cheat to beat it faster?Yes, cheating is immoral and wrong. It isn't wrong to let a sucker keep his money because when you cheat, you cannot realistically say they were a sucker. You cheated them out of their money, how can you confidently say you were better? They might be able to play better than they let on, but you never found out that they might actually be real competition because you cheated. If you can beat the game straight up, don't cheat. It's stupid. It's like the same as saying that online poker is rigged (sorry to bring up another subject). The cheaters have everything to lose, and only a small amount to gain. It's just, plain and simple, a stupid "gamble" to take.3. how do you feal cheaters should be--if at all--punished? what would you do / have you done if you find/found a cheater in your game who was a stranger? what if he is/was a best friend?This question was one I came up with after watching "Rounders" for the first time. When Worm "catches a hanger" or whatever and the policemen take all their money and kick them out. At first, I thought it was wrong for them to steal their 7 thousand or however much they had. After thinking longer, I decided it was actually a fitting punishment. Cheaters cheat with the intention of taking all your money, why not take all of their's as a fitting punishment? For homegames and such, I probably would make it a rule that if someone is caught cheating, they lose all the chips they have on the table (and obviously have to pay the cash that the chips were worth). That's as much as they could win on the hand they were caught cheating (I won't even assume they had cheated any other hands, just the one they were caught.) Therefore, I would charge the cheater every chip he had on the table. Then I show them the door. If it's a friend who I know is actually a decent guy, circumstances may change, but I don't make friends with sleezeballs so I generally wouldn't have to worry about a friend doing it. I suppose you could privately tell the person you noticed they cheated too, but sometimes I think public humilation is enough to bring some people to their senses that what they are doing is wrong. You could be doing them a favor in a way. Speaking in private may make them think they can keep doing it elsewhere, while public humiliation may make them subconsciously want to avoid such a situation again, which would be good.4. how do you think casinos/cardrooms should handle cheating (considering both prevention and reaction)? how do you think home games should handle it? how do you personally, if at all, protect against being cheated from in poker games?I actually don't play many live games (only a couple in my life) and I play at low enough stakes online that I feel I probably don't have to worry about this. I also kind of addressed this question a little in my answer for #3. I would be interested to hear what everyone else thinks though.Again, good idea for a post Akishore.

[NormanHaupt 0]

As always, a very classy way to handle the situation.1. do you have experience cheating? if so, has this affected your outlook on cheating and/or honest poker? are you a better player because of it, or have you become dependant on it?In poker? Never. But other games? You better believe it. I played football in highschool, you think I didn't occassionally hold a defensive end trying to come around the outside? Oh yeah. Is it against the rules? you betcha. Am I a bad player? Well, yeah, but not because of my holding- I was a recieving TE. I used what tools I had, what chances were given to me, and what knowledge I pocessed. If holding an end to protect my QB from being smeared worked once and the zebras didn't catch me, you better believe it was in my bag of tricks to do again later if I was lined up and he was coming on a pass blitz. I reffed in an online gaming league for a year too- catching cheaters using wallhacks, aimbots, railmods, skin mods, the works. I've personally busted 10 different players in this time, and assisted other refs in large matches to do cheat raids. I've been on both sides of the game, and understand why cheaters cheat and why people catch them. In my case, I depended on it on occassion. 2. do you believe cheating is immoral? even if it's immoral, do you believe it's wrong? or is it wrong to let a sucker keep his money? e.g. if you can beat the game straight-up, is it wrong to cheat to beat it faster?Absolutely not. Has anyone here ever walked along railroad tracks? Did 66mph in a 65 zone? How about beating the snot out of someone else? That's Assault- and you're cheating the law.But specifically, in poker, cheating is not immoral- many of times they honestly don't understand. They've never been caught. When they are, most of the time they repent.3. how do you feal cheaters should be--if at all--punished? what would you do / have you done if you find/found a cheater in your game who was a stranger? what if he is/was a best friend?I advocated in another thread to beat the snot out of them. I still stand by this- a cheater ought to be taken out back and shown what losing your honor can cost you. Aseem, you're a rarity who learned without it happening. But do you think a majority of cheaters would learn?When I caught game cheaters online, we did make their lives living hell. We banned many of the leagues together and formed a list of cheaters and their IP's. Cheating in one game could cost you to lose your ability in manyy others.And it's no different if its a friend or not. A friend will understand, with time. He'd share most of the shame moral parameters as you- even if they're not as developed. This is what friendship is.4. how do you think casinos/cardrooms should handle cheating (considering both prevention and reaction)? how do you think home games should handle it? how do you personally, if at all, protect against being cheated from in poker games? Obviously I think they do a fine job as it is. Most dealers can spot signals I'd imagine. I don't know, I'm not a B&M poker player.Home games, again, if caught, should take the dude outside and beat the snot out of him. He won't do it again.And I protect it by simply being aware. If I see it, get suspicious, I pay even more attention. The situation on the forums is that he used signals that would be unpractical in any tournament structure, or probably even in a solid casino. You protect yourself by playing in good establishments or at home with people you trust.

[TheIceman05 0]

My honest and short opinions...1) A very good friend of mine broke my heart by cheating, then had the balls to lie to me about it. I vouched for him, and then caught him definitively. It was a painful experience. Like someone ****ing your girlfriend or something...2) Cheating is absolutely immoral. The "letting a sucker keep his money" is a slippery slope I'm not willing to go down. What's the real, philosophical difference between using that logic to justify cheating and using it to justify robbery? Is it wrong to let a bank that can't protect it's money keep it's money? Or the investors who keep their funds there? 3) Every dime they have on them is yours. I don't care if he bought in for 10 bucks and has 1000 on the table. Maybe it's hypocritical, but I'd show him the same courtesy he'd show me. Also, I'm probably kick his ass, because most scum bags really don't understand any but the most physical kinds of pain. If he was a good friend, I wouldn't have the heart to beat his ass, so I'd tell him to leave, and he wouldn't be welcome at the game again. He wouldn't be welcome in my home, either. If he's cheating at cards, what else is he being dishonest about?4) Personally, I protect against cheating by looking for the following...- suspicious laydowns- suspicious calls- collusion (have they avoided every pot together? been in every pot together? does one always fold to the other on the river)- bottom card (is there always an ace on the bottom, etc.)- grip of cards (most people don't use a mechanic's grip unless they're cheating)And I always cut the deck. Friend or ally. Your honesty is admirable, Akishore. Hope you gave all that money back. Ice

[AC BillP 0]

Good thread topic here;1) Yes I was cheated in Vegas in the 1970's. I gave up cards until they were legalized in AC3)What should be done?.. Cheaters should be banned from all casino play if it's documented on video. Online, the pokersites with one player should report the cheaters to the wirefraud unit of the FBI and prosecuted as the felons they are.

[KDawgCometh 2]

1. do you have experience cheating? if so, has this affected your outlook on cheating and/or honest poker? are you a better player because of it, or have you become dependant on it? I've used collusion in the past, and honestly it was a waste of my time. I didn't gain all that much out of it and all the energy I used in the collusion could've been better spent paying more attention to the game. It will be something I don't plan on using again.2. do you believe cheating is immoral? even if it's immoral, do you believe it's wrong? or is it wrong to let a sucker keep his money? e.g. if you can beat the game straight-up, is it wrong to cheat to beat it faster? When I colluded I actually won less money off the guys that I played against then I had in the pst when I played with them without colluding.3. how do you feal cheaters should be--if at all--punished? what would you do / have you done if you find/found a cheater in your game who was a stranger? what if he is/was a best friend? I think that cheaters should be kicked out of games, or beaten up if they are a stranger. If he or she was a good friend then I'd have some serious thinking to do about whether I'd want that person tobe in my life anymore. If you are caught cheating then you should expect a beating, if you escape without one then consider yourself lucky4. how do you think casinos/cardrooms should handle cheating (considering both prevention and reaction)? how do you think home games should handle it? how do you personally, if at all, protect against being cheated from in poker games? a casino should ban a caught cheater and maybe give their name to the local gaming comission. In home games at the very least they should be removed permenetly if not beaten up. To protect I try to notice any weirdness going on, namely I look at their hand while dealing, and since I know what some collusion looks like it'd be hard to put it over me

[jomatty 0]

simply telling a cheater to cut it out is not enough. thats like saying they can cheat again against people who are not astute enough to catch it. thats not fair to the other players who have the right to a fair game. if your not sure then perhaps a discreet inquiry is better as no one should be publicly falsely accused. if you know for sure though, it should become public knowledge, to protect the good of the game.matty

[akishore 0]

to Swift_Psycho:you make a good point about public vs. private humiliation. since i am soft on this issue and feel that private advice is "nicer", you're probably right that the cheater wouldn't learn his lesson. but is it your moral obligation to make sure that cheater learns his lesson? probably so if he's your friend. if he's a stranger, i'd probably ask him to leave regardless, since i wouldn't have the heart to beat him up--"let him do what he wants elsewhere, but keep our game clean" type of thought.but what if others in the game don't feel the same as you, especially if it's a friendly game? would a tactic like "i saw you cheating, don't do it ever again and i expect you to dump your buy-in for the next ten sessions" (as one poster said in another post) be effective as well? this way, he would be humiliated in front of a friend and you would also balance the tables. just a thought.i like the idea of taking everything in front of him and splitting it among the table, however (if you decide to publicly humiliate him). his intention was to take all of your money, so why not take all of his? on the other hand, as a civilized society, is "an eye for an eye" type of philosophy really morally correct? just some food for thought.to Norman:i don't quite understand your post regarding the morality of cheating. sure, we've all sped while driving, but does that make it no longer immoral? specifically, in poker, just because cheaters don't understand the full extent of what they're doing, is cheating no longer immoral?as for your punishment, i admit you are right--i am a rarity who learned without getting the snot beat out of him. and to be honest, i was scared for my life when i was caught both times, because i kept picturing the scene in rounders and was really expecting something similar to happen. i'm just a short, skinny kid, and the fear of that might be what contributed to my change, as well.to Iceman:you make a great point about the "sucker" philosophy--where does it stop? one thing that i thought about when i read your response was looking at opponents' cards inadvertently (e.g. when they're being dealt too high, or when someone doesn't protect their hole cards). i've been trained to think that this ISN'T cheating--if a player is acute enough to pick up on it, he isn't purposely giving himself an advantage; that advantage presents itself and a good player will exploit and a bad player will not.however, after reading your post, i am no longer sure whether this is the best philosophy. where do you draw the line between cheating and in-game advantages? if someone constantly lifts up their cards and makes it blatantly easy to see their cards, is it your obligation to tell them to stop? is it morally wrong to look at them? i realize there is another post on this topic SPECIFICALLY but i am just wondering where the line should be drawn.to ACBillP:just out of curiousity, can you elaborate on your 1970's experience in vegas? i'd love to hear what kinds of things went on back then, if you don't mind sharing.to KDawg:your comment about punishments is typical--to beat up a stranger but do something milder to a friend--and while this makes common logical sense, i don't quite understand it. when a friend does it, it's actually worse, isn't it? he's purposely going out of the way to steal money from you, and betraying your friendship in the process, but a stranger is just stealing from a stranger. why should the stranger get hurt while the friend doesn't?i appreciate all of your feedback. i hope more people respond and we get some more views. again, thanks for keeping it objective and not flaming. i hope some of the other flame wars on this forum will stop.thanks,aseem

[Swift_Psycho 1]

to Swift_Psycho:you make a good point about public vs. private humiliation. since i am soft on this issue and feel that private advice is "nicer", you're probably right that the cheater wouldn't learn his lesson. but is it your moral obligation to make sure that cheater learns his lesson? probably so if he's your friend. if he's a stranger, i'd probably ask him to leave regardless, since i wouldn't have the heart to beat him up--"let him do what he wants elsewhere, but keep our game clean" type of thought.but what if others in the game don't feel the same as you, especially if it's a friendly game? would a tactic like "i saw you cheating, don't do it ever again and i expect you to dump your buy-in for the next ten sessions" (as one poster said in another post) be effective as well? this way, he would be humiliated in front of a friend and you would also balance the tables. just a thought.i like the idea of taking everything in front of him and splitting it among the table, however (if you decide to publicly humiliate him). his intention was to take all of your money, so why not take all of his? on the other hand, as a civilized society, is "an eye for an eye" type of philosophy really morally correct? just some food for thought.First, I dunno about the "next ten sessions" thing, I'd just take what he had on the table that one time. An eye for an eye philosophy may not be correct, I agree with this. I don't host any home games because I don't want these kinds of responsibilties, so if you see something wrong with my thinking in this area, it doesn't bother me. There are a lot of issues with cheating that can be hard to figure out. And is it my moral obligation to make sure the cheater learns his lesson? Maybe, but personally I don't want to take the time to mold a cheater into a good, moral person. I'd rather them be punished for their actions (by taking their money) and let them know that their actions were not being rewarded. Whether or not it changes them is up to them, but they certainly didn't profit from their experience at my game if we take all his chips. And as far as friends go, I don't want to make myself seem like a saint or anything, but I just rarely make friends with someone who is capable of being a cheat. I got into poker partially because reading people is a natural talent of mine. I can often tell if a someone is a good person or not and worth my friendship. I run with a moral crowd. Therefore, I am unsure of what I would do if I ran into a cheating problem with a friend. I apologize for not coming up with a satisfactory answer for you in that respect.So there are the last of my ideas, hope that helped clear a little up for you and I hope people keep posting on this subject.

[Absolute 0]

1. do you have experience cheating? if so, has this affected your outlook on cheating and/or honest poker? are you a better player because of it, or have you become dependant on it?

Dr. Phil, is that you?! Welcome to the forum!

[akishore 0]

simply telling a cheater to cut it out is not enough. thats like saying they can cheat again against people who are not astute enough to catch it. thats not fair to the other players who have the right to a fair game. if your not sure then perhaps a discreet inquiry is better as no one should be publicly falsely accused. if you know for sure though, it should become public knowledge, to protect the good of the game.matty

i understand what you're saying, but i'm not sure i completely agree. consider this: i don't remember the exact law, but a few years ago, there was a heated debate about whether reformed rapists/child-molestors should be allowed to live anywhere they wanted without having their criminal record publicly released.the idea was that the families in a certain neighborhood should have the right to know if a child molestor was in the area, while reformed criminals felt they had a right to lead a normal life after serving their punishment to society, and having their information released would prevent such a normal life.so i guess in the same vein, it's arguable whether releasing knowledge about a cheater--assuming he'll change--is ethical or not. for example, if the cheater was your best friend, and you talked to him and it was obvious he was really ashamed and regretful and really was ready to stop cheating, it would benefit him greatly if the rest of his friends never found out, and he was able to maintain good friendships and keep a friendly poker game intact.on the other hand, you are right also that such information should be made available to protect the integrity of the game. i guess i would draw the line between the two depending on whether the cheater was a friend or stranger. if stranger, i would make it public, but if friend, i would make it private.aseemp.s. i might be wrong, but i think the supreme court / congress (don't remember) eventually decided in favor of the reformed criminals. assuming the system worked properly, the criminals had paid their dues for their crime, and they had a right to live a normal life thereafter.

[JistTheFist 0]

akishore... I think I read in another thread somewhere that you're only 18?.. .all i can say is whoa. you're like 10 times as mature as 2/3rds of the people on this forum at your age... It's really great to read almost every post you put down... not based on whether I agree with you or not... but because of the thought that goes into all of your posts.... I'll try and put all my answers here when I have more time.

[MrConceit 0]

2. do you believe cheating is immoral? even if it's immoral, do you believe it's wrong? or is it wrong to let a sucker keep his money? e.g. if you can beat the game straight-up, is it wrong to cheat to beat it faster?Absolutely not. Has anyone here ever walked along railroad tracks? Did 66mph in a 65 zone? How about beating the snot out of someone else? That's Assault- and you're cheating the law.But specifically, in poker, cheating is not immoral- many of times they honestly don't understand. They've never been caught. When they are, most of the time they repent.

His question is whether it's immoral, not whether it's against the law. It's rather silly to talk about speeding 5-15 miles over the speed limit as being immoral.Most people seem to think if it's against the law, that it's worse. I'm kind of the reverse. There are so many stupid dumb laws. But you have to be aware of ones that are felonies, at least ones that are still enforced. It's still against the law to engage in oral sex and any number of ridiculous things in most states, but people don't care.People don't feel it's WRONG/immoral to speed, it just happens to be against the law. Though breaking these laws are hardly the same as breaking ones such as not killing people. There are degrees.It's fine to think cheating isn't immoral, I'm a little divided on what I fully consider cheating. Anything that gives me a serious edge that is against the rules I feel very uncomfortable with.I'll respond to Aseem's questions myself first, just thought I'd comment on this immoral vs illegal thing first.Oh by the way, I didn't mean to pick on you Norman, I liked everything you posted, and thought it was well thought out. I just think people make immoral = illegal too often, they aren't the same thing. And most people seem to think illegal is worse, I think kinda the opposite, not that I'm necessarily right.

[MrConceit 0]

1. do you have experience cheating? if so, has this affected your outlook on cheating and/or honest poker? are you a better player because of it, or have you become dependant on it?

I've done collusion online in the past. I specifically mean sharing card info with a friend. I have always refused to do any chain raising or anything really other than staying out of each others way. I mainly have used colluding as a way of knowing what was going on in the hand with a friend and vice versa. It's far more interesting if you know what's going on. And then you can discuss during the hand what's happening. I do the same thing with some friends just by observing their games.I have online "acquaintances" who do more, and have asked me to do more, but I refuse. I didn't really want to even share card info ever, but a friend or two of mine talked me into it in the past.I don't do this very much anymore, and almost always play alone in my cash games. I don't think I'm a better or worse player because of it, I never have used it very much for serious games. It was just a norm amoung some of my friends and I got dragged along for a while. I have tended to do worse when doing it anyway, I don't seem to concentrate on the game as much or as well. Plus it's not like you can 3/4 table and still collude, and that's mostly what I do nowadays, multitable.

2. do you believe cheating is immoral? even if it's immoral, do you believe it's wrong? or is it wrong to let a sucker keep his money? e.g. if you can beat the game straight-up, is it wrong to cheat to beat it faster?

I do believe cheating is immoral and wrong. But to me there are degrees. I refuse to collude with more than really 1 person at a table at a time. I refuse to do more than sharing card info basically. Most people wouldn't agree with me about degrees I suppose. I see poker as one of my serious hobbies, and I've never wanted to or liked to cheat at anything I take seriously. I never cheated at chess, and would never "truly" cheat at poker. I hate the very idea of teams of people taking out SnGs (though I've been asked to do so and refused). The whole sucker argument I think is stupid.

3. how do you feal cheaters should be--if at all--punished? what would you do / have you done if you find/found a cheater in your game who was a stranger? what if he is/was a best friend?

I really don't know what I think of this question. Others have answered it in many ways... I imagine I'd be similar to Aseem on this. I really don't know. I never have, nor do I ever intend, on cheating live. Sigh, this is a slippery slope. I may have to tell my friends I won't share card info again. It's just fun to play together, and if you know what they have during a hand the action is more fun to watch.

4. how do you think casinos/cardrooms should handle cheating (considering both prevention and reaction)? how do you think home games should handle it? how do you personally, if at all, protect against being cheated from in poker games?

No opinion.

[NormanHaupt 0]

Thank you both for responding without the flame.Honestly, its something I still struggle with. Morality is a weird kind of thing. I guess I tried to draw a line along legality- but hell I break laws daily. I speed 80+ up a mountain road I've driven for pretty much my entire life. I've never been in a wreck.. so yeah, I completely agree.I'm not sure what I belief yet. I certainly see both sides of it.. is cheating immoral? Well, is lying? What if the lie helped? Stealing? A loaf of bread? Someone'll write a reply about that and the reply will be idiotic (as will the poster be), so when he posts a quote of me saying this, he agrees that he is, indeed, an idiot. There's black and white, for sure. But thousands of gray between. People believe different things and thats what makes us human beings. Thanks again for the replies, guys.

[t 0]

To quote rounders...the only immoral thing is to let a sucker keep his money.Now I don't advocate cheating nor do I cheat and since I probably will never play with any of you I could care less. Why does everyone have to blow something stupid like this out of proportion. So what there are people who do not have the same morals that you do. Who cares that's life. There are a lot of worse things out there in this world then cheaters at poker and none of them quite equate. Would I like to be cheated against? Nope of course not. I'm not going to be an E-thug and talk about how I would send this person to the hospital. If you are suprised that there are cheaters in this forum then you really need a rude awakening. There are always going to be anglers and those looking for an edge to up their statistical advantage whether it is poker, baseball, or any other competition. I think this forum serves a higher purpose then to house stupid ass threads like this. Remember who provides this site and respect him by not disrespecting this forum with 80 "omg this guy is a cheater" threads.

[akishore 0]

Why does everyone have to blow something stupid like this out of proportion.

i actually wasn't going to respond to any flames, but i just wanted to address something that i'm sure no one knows:i wrote this thread before the whole wrto/stein incident.

I think this forum serves a higher purpose then to house stupid ass threads like this. Remember who provides this site and respect him by not disrespecting this forum with 80 "omg this guy is a cheater" threads.

maybe you misread my post, i never said anything remotely similar to "omg this guy is a cheater". i don't quite understand why you think addressing an issue such as cheating in a poker forum (an issue which you said will always be present, i might add) is a waste of forum space. i also don't understand why you think talking about this issue disrespects daniel negreanu.actually, i don't really want you to explain. think what you want, i don't want to start a flame war on this thread. i just wanted to clear something up, and i won't reply to any future flames.thanks,aseem

[NormanHaupt 0]

i wrote this thread before the whole wrto/stein incident.

<---- knew it before you posted this last reply.Muhuhahaha I've got the 6th, 7th, and possibly even the 8th sense.

[akishore 0]

i actually wasn't going to respond to any flames, but i just wanted to address something that i'm sure no one knows

EDIT: no one but NORMAN knows (since i told him earlier) :-) aseem

[Guest]

I love this thread, by the way. All topics should be all respectful like this and what not.

1. do you have experience cheating? if so, has this affected your outlook on cheating and/or honest poker? are you a better player because of it, or have you become dependant on it?

Nope. Can't say I've ever had the opportunity. I don't know many people who play online poker. Locally, I am from West Virginia; can't say this place is a real hot bed of poker activity. Seriously devoid of culture in all forms. I doubt anyone here would even have the presence of mind to cheat. Hell, sometimes its hard to find people who even know what poker is and get them to show up at our games (interesting side note: we have a normal weekly game. The only games we ever play are holdem and stud because no one else knows how to play any other games. Makes me sad). Not something I've been exposed to at all. This thread and all the others actually kind of opened my eyes a bit; I didn't really think it went on all that much.

2. do you believe cheating is immoral? even if it's immoral, do you believe it's wrong? or is it wrong to let a sucker keep his money? e.g. if you can beat the game straight-up, is it wrong to cheat to beat it faster?

Yeah, its wrong to cheat.

3. how do you feal cheaters should be--if at all--punished? what would you do / have you done if you find/found a cheater in your game who was a stranger? what if he is/was a best friend?

Chop off their hands! "Its hard to steal again if you don't have a *expletive deleted* hand!". Quote from a stand-up comic, I forget which one. You shouldn't actually cut off their hands. A few others have said it; take the chips they have in front of them currently, divide it up. Seems fair enough.

4. how do you think casinos/cardrooms should handle cheating (considering both prevention and reaction)? how do you think home games should handle it? how do you personally, if at all, protect against being cheated from in poker games?

I think in a home game you have to make light of it at the time somehow; especially if it happened in our weekly game. The rest of the people there would have no idea at all they were being cheated. Casino's? I wouldn't know. I never really felt the street-fight style beat down was the answer. I'm a peaceful person like that. And a touch off topic: Akishore is only 18? Who knew? I would've assumed you for much older. A testament to you........

[t 0]

Why does everyone have to blow something stupid like this out of proportion.

i actually wasn't going to respond to any flames, but i just wanted to address something that i'm sure no one knows:i wrote this thread before the whole wrto/stein incident.

I think this forum serves a higher purpose then to house stupid ass threads like this. Remember who provides this site and respect him by not disrespecting this forum with 80 "omg this guy is a cheater" threads.

maybe you misread my post, i never said anything remotely similar to "omg this guy is a cheater". i don't quite understand why you think addressing an issue such as cheating in a poker forum (an issue which you said will always be present, i might add) is a waste of forum space. i also don't understand why you think talking about this issue disrespects daniel negreanu.actually, i don't really want you to explain. think what you want, i don't want to start a flame war on this thread. i just wanted to clear something up, and i won't reply to any future flames.thanks,aseem

Sorry for jumping the gun, but it looked as if this entire thread was in retaliation to all the forum drama tonight. Just consider my response a retort to all of it.

[akishore 0]

Sorry for jumping the gun, but it looked as if this entire thread was in retaliation to all the forum drama tonight. Just consider my response a retort to all of it.

no problem, it's quite understandable.aseem

[gobears 0]

I'm over 40 and obviously one of the older players on this board, but here are my old-fashioned thoughts.

1. do you have experience cheating? if so, has this affected your outlook on cheating and/or honest poker? are you a better player because of it, or have you become dependant on it?

I've never cheated at poker and I started playing when I was in high school over twenty years ago. Have I ever cheated on other things? Yes, one example would be school from high school all the way thru college - not very often but I did at times when it suited me.

2. do you believe cheating is immoral? even if it's immoral, do you believe it's wrong? or is it wrong to let a sucker keep his money? e.g. if you can beat the game straight-up, is it wrong to cheat to beat it faster?

No, I don't believe that cheating is immoral but I believe that it is wrong as it gives an unfair advantage. To me, the current topic of steroids use in baseball would be an apt analogy. However, the fact that poker is a zero sum game makes it worse in my opinion. If you cheat and win $ that you wouldn't have otherwise, you are taking those $ from someone else. At least in baseball, you can say that the impact is more peripheral; e.g. Canseco hitting more home runs didn't hurt anyone but him (healthwise) although maybe he cost someone a better salary or an MVP trophy(Mike Greenwell's argument). When I cheated in school, I didn't really think that it affected anybody else, but in reality, everything is on a curve, so cheating did "hurt" the other students in my class. It's just less direct.

3. how do you feal cheaters should be--if at all--punished? what would you do / have you done if you find/found a cheater in your game who was a stranger? what if he is/was a best friend?

In my home high school game, one of my best friends was caught cheating as he replaced a card in his hand with another discard. A couple of my other friends had suspected for awhile before we caught him in the act. We told him never to do it again and we watched him closely after that. Even twenty years later, we're still good friends. However, two of my other good friends from that game lost respect for him and their friendship died soon after. Even to this day, when I'm with these two other friends, they ask me "How's the cheater doing?"In the present, another one of my friends who plays at the local B&M colludes with his friends when they are at the tables. It doesn't affect my friendship with him but I wouldn't ever play at the same table as them.

4. how do you think casinos/cardrooms should handle cheating (considering both prevention and reaction)? how do you think home games should handle it? how do you personally, if at all, protect against being cheated from in poker games?

Casinos/cardrooms need to take this seriously; poker has had a great revival in the past few years, but a cheating scandal could hurt it's popularity. I expect a level playing field - I have enough leaks in my game without having to give up additional edges to cheaters.In terms of myself, I just try to be aware of the playing environment and if something looks or feels funny, then it's no big hassle to walk or move to another game.

[NYIsles 0]

...as well as my former fraternity's games...Does your cheating have something to do with the fact that you are no longer part of the fraternity?