a live tourney final table hand, exp. players help!

[skoal_dip 0]

Was at a poker club in Chinatown on saturday for a $1000 freeroll that they're hosting to promote the club's 1-2 and 2-5 NL games. I frequently play the cash games but most of the people that showed up were there for the first time to check it out. Anyways, out of 82 people, i make it to the final table 7th out of 10 in chips with 5600, chip leader had about 20 000 25 000 and the blinds were 300-600 no ante. I had been getting a lot of respect at my previous (very shortstacked) table but now we had a lot of new faces and a lot more chips. It's folded to me in 3rd position with A Jo. Now only the top 3 paid in this tourney and I wasnt about to blind myself out and was ready to gamble so keep that in mind. I'm faced with a pretty big dilemna here, I can either1. fold- i think ace jack off is too big of a hand to let go here.2. Call- can't do it obviously, but if anybody disagrees, please let me know3. Min raise- I never min-raise but i might scream strength and could possibly steal the blinds4. Raise 3x the big blind- hope to take down the blinds, but leaving myself with enough chips if I really have a strong read that I'm beaten.5. Push all in- Seriously considered it but thought I would only get action if i was beaten, although this may not have been true since it was a freeroll.Let me know what you think is the best play and I'll say what happened later.

[copernicus 0]

the size and position of all the stacks is important here, but in general I would look at the min-raise most closely. You are an unknown and fairly short stacked, and if youve got a few limit players at the table a minraise looks normal to them. If there is a very big stack behind you he may be tempted to limp with a weaker hand so no flop is going to thrill you except Jxx , JJx or AJx and you need to be prepared to get out3x bb commits too many chips, if youre going that far you might as well push, which would be my option with a big stack behind me.

[Jdr999 0]

I would push. If you min raise and someone pushes, it would be an automatic call. Also, you don't want to act first after the flop if it misses you.Only time I would think of limping in here is if the players yet to act are very loose/aggressive. Then I might limp, and if they raise, re-raise all-in.Unless the following above applies in regards to the limp/re-raise, I would go all-in. You are not going to get people to fold better hand like A-Q or better or a high pair, but some players might lay down a small pair depending on their stack size, and they might call with A-10 or worse.

[copernicus 0]

I would push. If you min raise and someone pushes' date=' it would be an automatic call. Also, you don't want to act first after the flop if it misses you.quote']Disagree. min raise followed by a push is an automatic fold. Thats why I would prefer to commit as few chips as possible while still showing some strength.AJ in the face of a raise is too easily dominated and at best on the short end of a coin flip.

[SLEEPYCHIEF 0]

Was at a poker club in Chinatown on saturday for a $1000 freeroll that they're hosting to promote the club's 1-2 and 2-5 NL games. I frequently play the cash games but most of the people that showed up were there for the first time to check it out. Anyways, out of 82 people, i make it to the final table 7th out of 10 in chips with 5600, chip leader had about 20 000 25 000 and the blinds were 300-600 no ante. I had been getting a lot of respect at my previous (very shortstacked) table but now we had a lot of new faces and a lot more chips. It's folded to me in 3rd position with A Jo. Now only the top 3 paid in this tourney and I wasnt about to blind myself out and was ready to gamble so keep that in mind. I'm faced with a pretty big dilemna here, I can either1. fold- i think ace jack off is too big of a hand to let go here.2. Call- can't do it obviously, but if anybody disagrees, please let me know3. Min raise- I never min-raise but i might scream strength and could possibly steal the blinds4. Raise 3x the big blind- hope to take down the blinds, but leaving myself with enough chips if I really have a strong read that I'm beaten.5. Push all in- Seriously considered it but thought I would only get action if i was beaten, although this may not have been true since it was a freeroll.Let me know what you think is the best play and I'll say what happened later.[/quotI'd raise to 1200 here. If it is reraised, you take stock of the situation and if you believe your dominated you can still fold, or if ur believe at worst ur 50/50 you move in. What ever the flop is I push all in. The reason I don't push before the flop is someone might call u with a Q 10, 66, or something like that and effectively your risking ur whole stack to win 900. But let's say two people call there is 3600 plus in the pot, giving you equity to move ur remaing 4500 in. As far as you being willing to gamble that is the way I would do it.

[copernicus 0]

I'd raise to 1200 here. If it is reraised, you take stock of the situation and if you believe your dominated you can still fold, or if ur believe at worst ur 50/50 you move in. What ever the flop is I push all in. The reason I don't push before the flop is someone might call u with a Q 10, 66, or something like that and effectively your risking ur whole stack to win 900. But let's say two people call there is 3600 plus in the pot, giving you equity to move ur remaing 4500 in. As far as you being willing to gamble that is the way I would do it.

So you agree with a min-raise, but carry it into a stop and go. I didnt think of a stop and go, because my mind set is that its for situations where you are most likely ahead (eg small pairs) but not strong enough to want to see a showdown, and you have a good chance of picking up folding equity from the flop (eg AK misses the flop).I'm not sure whether a stop and go is right here or not, though my gut reaction is its not because it seems like you are probably more likely to lose FE than gain it.Which leads me to another theoretical exploration, more practical then "do Chips lose value". What hands are favorites to increase their folding equity on the flop, and which ones are favorites to lose folding equity?

[skoal_dip 0]

So Copernicus, what you're saying is a if i raise it the 3x the bb, i really am committing myself, even if i know I'm dominated? I guess it wouldn't of been that bad because the bb was one of those middle stacks that has chips but can't really be giving any way.

[copernicus 0]

So Copernicus, what you're saying is a if i raise it the 3x the bb, i really am committing myself, even if i know I'm dominated? I guess it wouldn't of been that bad because the bb was one of those middle stacks that has chips but can't really be giving any way.

3x bb is right on the edge of being pot committed and forced all the way to the river, and definitely puts you in a push or fold situation if youre going to play post flop. Pre-flop you can get away from it even after 3x bb, its just more than I want to commit if I am going to get reraised. The difference between a minraise and 3x bb isnt meaningful to a middle stack, since only 3 positions are paid..its not like he can crawl into the money. If you think youre dominated after the flop then I think you could bail.However, knowing that he is middle stack may give more credence to a stop and go, like sleepychief recommends. A very big stack or very small stack wont give you the folding equity that a middle stack will.Sleepychief is relying on the fact that there was no re-raise pre-flop (which you could have folded to) to indicate that you are likely to pick up folding equity on the flop.A middle stack is going to reraise with the big pairs and AK, maybe AQ. Since youre a smaller stack he probably isnt going to expect the implied odds neccessary for suited connectors. That puts him pretty solidly in the low or middle pair range.If the flop comes in with big cards you have picked up considerable folding equity. If it comes in rags that dont hit his set you have picked up FE if he was in "set or fold" mode, and even middle cards will give a small pair a hard time if you push.I'm moving over to the min raise/ push any flop side. (BTW a minraise is better for a stop and go then 3x bb, because the larger the pot the less FE you have for your push).

[NarSARSsist 0]

What about a raise to 2 1/2 x bb? [seriously, I'm not trying to be silly by picking the mean]. I think in certain cases a 2 1/2 x bb raise looks even stronger then a min raise, since it still looks like you're inviting a call, but not from just any random hand. If you raise to 3x the bb, that's 1800, leaving yourself with 3800. If anyone calls you, there's already going to be 1800 * 2 + 300 + 600 = 4500 in the pot. If there's two callers, that's 6300 in the pot. With only 3800 left, it might be a bit harder to force someone off, even if you read them as being weak. With a raise to 1500, you have 4100 left, and with one caller that's a pot of 3900, so there's still a chance of them going away. With two callers, that gets the pot to 5400, which I think if it was a three way pot, they still might drop their hand, not wanting to pay another 4100 on top of their preflop 1500. Anyone with some comments?

[SLEEPYCHIEF 0]

What about a raise to 2 1/2 x bb? [seriously, I'm not trying to be silly by picking the mean]. I think in certain cases a 2 1/2 x bb raise looks even stronger then a min raise, since it still looks like you're inviting a call, but not from just any random hand. If you raise to 3x the bb, that's 1800, leaving yourself with 3800. If anyone calls you, there's already going to be 1800 * 2 + 300 + 600 = 4500 in the pot. If there's two callers, that's 6300 in the pot. With only 3800 left, it might be a bit harder to force someone off, even if you read them as being weak. With a raise to 1500, you have 4100 left, and with one caller that's a pot of 3900, so there's still a chance of them going away. With two callers, that gets the pot to 5400, which I think if it was a three way pot, they still might drop their hand, not wanting to pay another 4100 on top of their preflop 1500. Anyone with some comments?

In a tourney with big blinds to relatively short stacks, a Min raise, is just as good 3x or 2.5x the BB. Being this was a free roll, I'm were not looking at a 90 min structure,