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Not to jump on any bandwagons since every other post has been knocking the play of the OP who was only trying to show a 4 pair hand but am I the only one that thinks that he over played his Med pair in that situation?Maybe I'm just too weak a player to get too far in a tourney tho I have placed top 4 in a few small (10 - 15.00 buy in 31 - 600 entries) tourneys and I'd have to have called the BB with that hand and been prolly in better shape when the rest of the players went insane raising the heck outta it after me so I could then fold and make it further into the tourney. IMHO a Med PP like that you really just wanna see a flop and hope to hit a set or run away from it. I don't know, Guess it's just me since noone said anything like that to begin with.

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I didn't read all the posts so what was the betting pattern. If the kings or aces were slowplayed preflop then i can see DNA and the other player come in with the jacks but if it went like raise from DNA, reraised by jacks, reraised by kings, reraised by aces then the 9s need to be tossed and probably the jacks although i can't fault a call there. I'm just not sure what the betting pattern was so i can't say somebody played the hand poorly but thats bad luck to see 4 overpairs like that.

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Whenever the title under your name changes from "Poker Forum Newbie" To "Reigning Neg-O Champion" I will start taking your advice LOL J/K man I couldnt help it, the setup was there, I had to deliver. But seriously your wrong.
To avoid arguing with other people that can only post with the wittiest amount of arrogance, I'd have to admit that I'd more than likely make the same call, but I'd still say that objectively it is the wrong call. I think the main argument for saying it is correct is that fact that 1/3 of the stack is already in, and you have to accumulate enough chips to make top 4 anyway. But given that you almost garunteed have to catch a 9 and even then may have plenty of ways to lose the hand, I think 2/3 of the stack is plenty enough to double/triple up with a hand where you're even money or a favorite, rather than having a 15%ish chance to win. However, I did not win the Negreanu Open although I didn't play in it (would've won if I had...haha) so it'd be interesting to see this one as a poll question. It really depends on your strategy in the tourney, but I think overall it's a bad call, though not by a ton.P.S. Why was I demoted from Regular to Newbie anyway...is DrawingDead a moderator now?
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I didn't read all the posts so what was the betting pattern. If the kings or aces were slowplayed preflop then i can see DNA and the other player come in with the jacks but if it went like raise from DNA, reraised by jacks, reraised by kings, reraised by aces then the 9s need to be tossed and probably the jacks although i can't fault a call there. I'm just not sure what the betting pattern was so i can't say somebody played the hand poorly but thats bad luck to see 4 overpairs like that.
DNA opened it for a third of his stack from early position. Push, Push, Push, 5-1 on our money, a third of our stack in. Call. It's not even close. Seriously.
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I didn't read all the posts so what was the betting pattern. If the kings or aces were slowplayed preflop then i can see DNA and the other player come in with the jacks but if it went like raise from DNA, reraised by jacks, reraised by kings, reraised by aces then the 9s need to be tossed and probably the jacks although i can't fault a call there. I'm just not sure what the betting pattern was so i can't say somebody played the hand poorly but thats bad luck to see 4 overpairs like that.
DNA opened it for a third of his stack from early position. Push, Push, Push, 5-1 on our money, a third of our stack in. Call. It's not even close. Seriously.
Thank you. Yeah in that case, its not even close. Gotta call without a doubt. He would've played it very poorly if he folded there. Just bad timing for DNA.
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Whenever the title under your name changes from "Poker Forum Newbie" To "Reigning Neg-O Champion" I will start taking your advice LOL J/K man I couldnt help it, the setup was there, I had to deliver. But seriously your wrong.
To avoid arguing with other people that can only post with the wittiest amount of arrogance, I'd have to admit that I'd more than likely make the same call, but I'd still say that objectively it is the wrong call. I think the main argument for saying it is correct is that fact that 1/3 of the stack is already in, and you have to accumulate enough chips to make top 4 anyway. But given that you almost garunteed have to catch a 9 and even then may have plenty of ways to lose the hand, I think 2/3 of the stack is plenty enough to double/triple up with a hand where you're even money or a favorite, rather than having a 15%ish chance to win. However, I did not win the Negreanu Open although I didn't play in it (would've won if I had...haha) so it'd be interesting to see this one as a poll question. It really depends on your strategy in the tourney, but I think overall it's a bad call, though not by a ton.P.S. Why was I demoted from Regular to Newbie anyway...is DrawingDead a moderator now?
You'd be wrong, saying that objectively it's the wrong call. He opened the pot for A THIRD OF HIS STACK. It's a freeroll. People don't always make the most rational moves during free rolls. With all of that being said, why would I have 'demoted' you from Regular to Newbie? Take a look around at the other threads or maybe drop by Suggestions and Updates Forum for your answer. I'm not that big of an asshole, seriously. Quit it.
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You'd be wrong, saying that objectively it's the wrong call. He opened the pot for A THIRD OF HIS STACK. It's a freeroll. People don't always make the most rational moves during free rolls. With all of that being said, why would I have 'demoted' you from Regular to Newbie? Take a look around at the other threads or maybe drop by Suggestions and Updates Forum for your answer. I'm not that big of an *******, seriously. Quit it.
Yes, mother.I don't know your definition of objectively, but mathematically he wasn't getting 5:1 or better for his money. That was what I was going on.
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You'd be wrong, saying that objectively it's the wrong call. He opened the pot for A THIRD OF HIS STACK. It's a freeroll. People don't always make the most rational moves during free rolls. With all of that being said, why would I have 'demoted' you from Regular to Newbie? Take a look around at the other threads or maybe drop by Suggestions and Updates Forum for your answer. I'm not that big of an censored, seriously. Quit it.
Yes, mother.I don't know your definition of objectively, but mathematically he wasn't getting 5:1 or better for his money. That was what I was going on.
We have 3kAll 3 people in the hand have us covered.. DNA raises from EP to 1kPerson A goes all in for 3kPerson B goes all in for 3kPerson C goes all in for 3k1k + 3k + 3k +3k = 10kWe have 2k left.2k to win 10k10:2 = 5:1Are you done yet?Seriously, quit it.I'm not being an asshole. I'm making a point. If you cannot handle that, then quit posting.
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You'd be wrong, saying that objectively it's the wrong call. He opened the pot for A THIRD OF HIS STACK. It's a freeroll. People don't always make the most rational moves during free rolls. With all of that being said, why would I have 'demoted' you from Regular to Newbie? Take a look around at the other threads or maybe drop by Suggestions and Updates Forum for your answer. I'm not that big of an censored, seriously. Quit it.
Yes, mother.I don't know your definition of objectively, but mathematically he wasn't getting 5:1 or better for his money. That was what I was going on.
DNA had 2K left and the pot had 11K in it, so he was getting 5.5/1 on his money, DD apologizes for the miscalculation.
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I'm surprised you take the time to respond to my posts when you don't even really know what I'm saying. I know you aren't a moderator, that's why it's a joke. And I realize that 10,000/2,000 = 5:1. I do appreciate you doing the Einstein work for it though. When someone says "I wasn't getting better than 5:1 on my money to call" they in fact are not challenging the math that says there are 5 times as many chips in the pot as it takes to call, that would be a difficult thing to prove. I do, however, mean that the odds of him winning were worse than 5:1, making a 5:1 call mathematically bad.Let's say that in the tourney that DN is in now, he doesn't accumulate a larger stack, and at the end of the day he has around 35K. The blinds have raised enough to where he can't really make any moves other than pushing. He gets 99 and raises 1/3 of his stack with the intention of getting it all in if there's another raise, or it goes to a safe flop. Like in the freeroll, DN is interested more in getting in the top 3-4 as simply cashing isn't one of his goals. However, there's a couple other small stacks who go ahead and push all in due to being in the same situation. Then a 3rd player with more chips also goes all in. Do you think he calls here? I personally think he folds, and again, mathematically he's not getting odds to call anyway. DNA's situation was different, as it was a freeroll and that's why I said I probably would've called instead of trying to grind another round, but it was still on the side of a bad call.

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I'm surprised you take the time to respond to my posts when you don't even really know what I'm saying. I know you aren't a moderator, that's why it's a joke. And I realize that 10,000/2,000 = 5:1. I do appreciate you doing the Einstein work for it though. When someone says "I wasn't getting better than 5:1 on my money to call" they in fact are not challenging the math that says there are 5 times as many chips in the pot as it takes to call, that would be a difficult thing to prove. I do, however, mean that the odds of him winning were worse than 5:1, making a 5:1 call mathematically bad.Let's say that in the tourney that DN is in now, he doesn't accumulate a larger stack, and at the end of the day he has around 35K. The blinds have raised enough to where he can't really make any moves other than pushing. He gets 99 and raises 1/3 of his stack with the intention of getting it all in if there's another raise, or it goes to a safe flop. Like in the freeroll, DN is interested more in getting in the top 3-4 as simply cashing isn't one of his goals. However, there's a couple other small stacks who go ahead and push all in due to being in the same situation. Then a 3rd player with more chips also goes all in. Do you think he calls here? I personally think he folds, and again, mathematically he's not getting odds to call anyway. DNA's situation was different, as it was a freeroll and that's why I said I probably would've called instead of trying to grind another round, but it was still on the side of a bad call.
I think your reasoning is flawed here, as you've changed your reasoning for why the call was bad. In a free roll, with a third of his stack comitted, getting better than 5:1 on his money, it is the +EV play to call.As for your comparison to Daniel's tournament, I promise you, Daniel would make the +EV play, whatever that happened to be. There was no financial gain for DNA to fold and hopefully have two players go bust. There is financial gain if Daniel were to fold and let two others fold--not that that's what he'd do. Therein lies the flaw in your argument. But, que sera, sera.
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I guarantee DN calls there, in fact the only thing I think DN might do differently is move in instead of raising 1/3 of his stack. But after committing that much there's no way he would fold. At that point you have to get lucky , might as well be in a 13K pot.

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I'm not going to "garuntee" that DN would not call, but his main strategy is to isolate and outplay opponents rather than to get his money in with a 15% chance of winning in a 4 way pot where he has the 4th best hand. That goes against his usual strategy. And to assume for a second that the odds he was being laid to call were identical to the odds of winning the hand (DNA's odds of winning were lower), DN has emphasized that a crapshoot is generally a negative thing if you have a chance to outplay your opponents. And looking at this remaining field, he most definitely does. Calling is in now way +EV in the situation DNA ran into, and wouldn't be for DN, even if he ran into lighter hands than AA, KK, JJ.

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Stewdio's actually more right than wrong here. If the cards had been face up, 99 should've folded when it came back because he wasn't getting nearly the odds he needed. Being up against 3 pps IS different from being up against 1. Run the numbers for yourself and you'll see this. I think what I found yesterday was this...If 0 of the 3 hands are overpairs, he obviously has a very profitable callIf 1 of the 3 hands is an overpair, he has a slightly profitable callIf 2 of the 3 hands is an overpair, he has a slightly -EV callIf all 3 hands are overpairs, he has a significantly -EV callI already gave my opinion on the call, but I don't think you can go too wrong either way.

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Stewdio's actually more right than wrong here. If the cards had been face up, 99 should've folded when it came back because he wasn't getting nearly the odds he needed. Being up against 3 pps IS different from being up against 1. Run the numbers for yourself and you'll see this. I think what I found yesterday was this...If 0 of the 3 hands are overpairs, he obviously has a very profitable callIf 1 of the 3 hands is an overpair, he has a slightly profitable callIf 2 of the 3 hands is an overpair, he has a slightly -EV callIf all 3 hands are overpairs, he has a significantly -EV callI already gave my opinion on the call, but I don't think you can go too wrong either way.
I don't think getting 5.5-1 on your money is a slightly -EV call against 2 overpairs--seems like it'd be EV neutral, but, I'll take your word for it. I think the issue lies in giving any, let alone 2 or 3, credit for an overpair. Thanks though, good post.
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Hum, don't take my word for it because I was wrong. I calculated yesterday that we needed 18.2% pot equity for a breakeven call but we really only need 15.4%. I had taken "2085/11455 x 100" rather than "2085/13540 x 100".So it's still a bad call if we're facing 3 overpairs, but 2 is fine. With imperfect information, we should clearly call. Our opponents weren't deepstacked and as you say, it was a freeroll.

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Hum, don't take my word for it because I was wrong. I calculated yesterday that we needed 18.2% pot equity for a breakeven call but we really only need 15.4%. I had taken "2085/11455 x 100" rather than "2085/13540 x 100".So it's still a bad call if we're facing 3 overpairs, but 2 is fine. With imperfect information, we should clearly call. Our opponents weren't deepstacked and as you say, it was a freeroll.
I was trying to calculate that exact formula on my PC calculator before I hit call, but the stupid clock on FCP only gives you like 15 seconds, so I went with my previous thought process explained twice before instead.
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Hum, don't take my word for it because I was wrong. I calculated yesterday that we needed 18.2% pot equity for a breakeven call but we really only need 15.4%. I had taken "2085/11455 x 100" rather than "2085/13540 x 100".So it's still a bad call if we're facing 3 overpairs, but 2 is fine. With imperfect information, we should clearly call. Our opponents weren't deepstacked and as you say, it was a freeroll.
Damn, I'm good. :club: Thanks though.
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The only scenario where it's +EV for 2 overpairs is with overlapping cards. If one player has AK or AQ and any of the others have AA, KK, QQ, then it becomes +EV. Otherwise, even if the 3rd has an underpair, it's still -EV.

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I think the people arguing for a fold are forgetting the circumstances which are very important. Forget it's a freeroll that shouldn't matter, but it is a satellite where only 4 spots are worth anything. If he folds he has 2,000 with blinds at 200/400 and coming up on 300/600, that alone is reason enough to call. You can't outplay opponents when you have 5 big bets

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congrats to the other three guys that made it to the semifinals. I was second in chips when we got to four (cielo did have a huge lead, though) and I didn't realize that the winner got $200, so I didn't take it seriously and went all in with the krablar... Unfortunately, I was the one that got pinched!
Congrats on moving onto the next round, even though u did make a horrible call and suckout on me with AK (me) vs AJ (you)
Sorry about that. In all honesty, I made two brutal plays in 3 hours and that was one of them. The other was when I made a steal raise w./A8 in late position and one of the blinds went allin. I inexplicably called for about 1/4 of my chips and lost to AK. I'm actually very new to tournament poker. I normally play cash games and I've probably played in less than 10 tourneys in my life. Anyway, sorry to lay the bad beat on you...
not bitter, i knew that if i was going to lose that hand it would be on the river
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I do, however, mean that the odds of him winning were worse than 5:1, making a 5:1 call mathematically bad.
Rubbish
                    equity (%) 	 win (%)	tie (%) Hand  1:	19.3370 % 	 19.06%  00.28%      { 9c9s }Hand  2:	20.7314 % 	 19.29%  01.44%      { 77+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+ }Hand  3:	25.9097 % 	 23.93%  01.98%      { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }Hand  4:	34.0219 % 	 32.14%  01.89%      { JJ+, AKs, AKo }

Enough said

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I didn't read all the posts so what was the betting pattern. If the kings or aces were slowplayed preflop then i can see DNA and the other player come in with the jacks but if it went like raise from DNA, reraised by jacks, reraised by kings, reraised by aces then the 9s need to be tossed and probably the jacks although i can't fault a call there.  I'm just not sure what the betting pattern was so i can't say somebody played the hand poorly but thats bad luck to see 4 overpairs like that.
DNA opened it for a third of his stack from early position. Push, Push, Push, 5-1 on our money, a third of our stack in. Call. It's not even close. Seriously.
Agreed, although I would have called more based on the fact that I already qualified for the next round. I need to beat 40 people, and then 10, and then Daniel and I will be buddies. Daniel, I like my Tequila room temperature, with a little salt and some lime. Something good, some Cabo Wabo maybe. Were gonna be pals. Sweet.
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