Merby 3 Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Playing 1/2 NLHE live at a casino. We are 9 handed right now, and there are many moderate stacks at the table (~$300 to $600). Play is loose in general and there are a lot of fish at the table. Hero has played UTG before and reads him as a weak player (not the biggest fish at the table, but overvalues hands, making lots of loose calls. The villian is a weak, loose player) MP2 has been at the game for about 2 hours and is even weaker than the villian. He makes lots of loose calls and plays very passively. Key players:UTG (villian): $ (loose + passive) ~$350UTG+1(Hero): ~$600MP2: $ (loose + passive) ~$300Hero dealt 5:heart: 6 Pre-flop:UTG calls $2, Hero calls $2, 1 fold, MP1 Raises to $10, hero calls, MP1 calls.Flop: K 3 4 (Pot = $75)UTG bets $20, Hero calls, MP1 callsTurn: 8 (Pot = $135)UTG bets $75, hero...?Notes: 1) Based on the play, pre-flop I put the villian on one of three hands: AA, KK, or AK (the smooth-call, reraise from UTG stank of strength. The villian was also very comfortable throughout the hand and was giving off tells of strength. 2) MP1 had a large range of possible hands (he called similar pre-flop raises with A2-o, and made similar plays with Q7-soooted for example). He was playing passively, however, and I had him (at best) on a flush draw, and (at worst) on a "pair draw" going into the turn. 3) I was certain UTG put me on the diamond draw, meaning if I hit my straight, I will bust him for his remaining $200-ish. If MP1 didn't call, I could even try the river bluff if a diamond hit (although I suspected UTG would make a "crying call" on a diamond river: he just seemed to have too strong a hand and was too pot-committed to lay it down) 4) If MP2 did call, then I would put him on the diamond draw, giving me better pot odds, but giving me only 6 outs going into the river.Bottom Line I was faced with calling $75 to win $285 and there was one person left to act behind me. I had 6 genuine outs and two questionable diamond outs. I knew I had to improve to win, but felt the implied odds of UTG's remaining $200 made ths a good call -- even with MP2 left to act.Should I call? Link to post Share on other sites
DrawingDeadInDM 0 Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Implied odds make up for a lot of the money issues here, but, the fact that we could make our straight and be no good (diamond) is really kinda bothersome.Again, and I've said this before, if we're gonna play our hand to make our straight, then we have to make a tough call if we do. That is to say, if we spike the 2 we have to call. I probably re-raise the flop, hoping to buy a free turn/cheap showdown for the above reason--if I do hit the deuce or seven of diamonds, and get some information the relative strength of the hand behind me. Getting rid of him helps, and finding out just how strong he is helps. I call if I think I can stack both players when I make my straight, but, that's just me. We have a relatively smalla mount of money invested here, so, no reason to try and pull anything crazy. Would've been neater if it was the 34 on the flop, though. Link to post Share on other sites
NoSup4U 0 Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Why not find a better spot against such fish? Seems like Hero is fishing himself here. And if other fish doesn't come along, even if you get all villians money, the pot isn't laying you spectacular odds or anything.??? Maybe I'm too conservative, but I wouldn't have called pf. I'd call flop, but not the turn. Against players who I think I might have fold equity, I might check/raise all in the flop.Mark Link to post Share on other sites
Merby 3 Posted January 22, 2006 Author Share Posted January 22, 2006 I agree with the call being questionable pre-flop. Nevertheless, these are the situations I love: me with small suited connectors or a small pair with position against a large pair. Normally I wouldn't call $25 pre-flop unless both of our stacks are over $500, but I figured with the 3rd player, I could peel a flop.You've summed up my key choice here: I felt that with the implied odds, the call was acceptable, but I felt I could out-play them in better situations, so why risk it here? (I was not cocerned of MP1 raising behind, I wass certain he wasn't holdng a monster, hence he was drawing, at best). I didn't raise the flop because I wanted MP1 to tag along for improved drawing odds.(Results to follows in a little while)Cheers,Merby Link to post Share on other sites
TeeSludge 0 Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 I like the "just" call on the flop. On the turn, I probably only make the call if I'm pretty sure the other player is going to fold and that UTG would fold to an all-in should a diamond hit. There is probably no doubt in UTG's head that you are on a draw, it is just a matter of whether or not he would fold to a big river bet. Link to post Share on other sites
DrawingDeadInDM 0 Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 I like the "just" call on the flop. Â On the turn, I probably only make the call if I'm pretty sure the other player is going to fold and that UTG would fold to an all-in should a diamond hit. There is probably no doubt in UTG's head that you are on a draw, it is just a matter of whether or not he would fold to a big river bet.I think that's important, too.Do you think you could get him off top set or TPTK if another diamond comes? Link to post Share on other sites
Merby 3 Posted January 22, 2006 Author Share Posted January 22, 2006 To answer the comments: - I did NOT think he would fold if a diamond came (he can't make big laydowns -- hence I felt certain I had $200 more implied odds)With the added $200 implied odds, I decided one of two things would happen:1) If MP1 calls (I put him on the flush draw) In this case, I am calling $75 to win $560 and was drawing to 6 outs. I am getting 6.5 to 1 pot odds to hit a roughly 6 to 1 shot. ($560 = 135 (current pot) + 3*75 (turn bet) + 200 (implied river odds)2) If MP1 has nothing and folds In this case, I am calling $75 to win$485 and am drawing to 8 outs (since villian has a made hand and not a flush draw). I am getting 5.5 to 1 odds to hit a 5.5 to 1 shot.I decided that the odds justified the speculation call (add on the fact that if I call and miss, I still have a healthy $400 -plus stack to work with at this juicy table)Results: I called and MP1 folded. River brought the 7 (BINGO! NUTS!). UTG bet $100 into me, and I put him all-in for the remaining $100. He calls in a heartbeat and proudly flips over KK. As I suspected, he didn't even see the straight, and I now have over $1,000.Cheers,Merby Link to post Share on other sites
TeeSludge 0 Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Wow, after seeing the math, the turn call definetely makes more sense. Nice river card and result. :)CHA CHING. Link to post Share on other sites
Merby 3 Posted January 22, 2006 Author Share Posted January 22, 2006 Nevertheless, the math was soooo close, in the heat of the moment, I honestly wasn't sure whether my call bordered (mathematically) on the +EV or the -EV side of the line. Link to post Share on other sites
DrawingDeadInDM 0 Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Nevertheless, the math was soooo close, in the heat of the moment, I honestly wasn't sure whether my call bordered (mathematically) on the +EV or the -EV side of the line.The math's very close, but, the fact is, you in this situation, you likely stack a set, and get a good hunk out of two pair's stack too. That adds up to more than most anything else. Link to post Share on other sites
Merby 3 Posted January 22, 2006 Author Share Posted January 22, 2006 Nevertheless, the math was soooo close, in the heat of the moment, I honestly wasn't sure whether my call bordered (mathematically) on the +EV or the -EV side of the line.The math's very close, but, the fact is, you in this situation, you likely stack a set, and get a good hunk out of two pair's stack too. That adds up to more than most anything else.Actually... I think I stack TPTK or better: remember the villian is weak and tends to have difficulty laying down in such situations... I think he would feel pot-committed with AK (especially since I am sure he puts me on the flush draw and not the straight draw)Cheers,Merby Link to post Share on other sites
DrawingDeadInDM 0 Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Nevertheless, the math was soooo close, in the heat of the moment, I honestly wasn't sure whether my call bordered (mathematically) on the +EV or the -EV side of the line.The math's very close, but, the fact is, you in this situation, you likely stack a set, and get a good hunk out of two pair's stack too. That adds up to more than most anything else. Actually... I think I stack TPTK or better: remember the villian is weak and tends to have difficulty laying down in such situations... I think he would feel pot-committed with AK (especially since I am sure he puts me on the flush draw and not the straight draw)Cheers,MerbyYeah, in this particular hand you might. In similar situations against different villains, I'm not sure. Either way you played it correctly. Link to post Share on other sites
NoSup4U 0 Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Merby - I agree with most everything posted above. In general though, we all should be looking for situations that aren't EV neutral. That being said, everyone is allowed to make a neutral call now and then. Its good for table image (assuming you're normally not drawing like that) because most people will see that as a donkey call, not understanding the math behind it. :)Glad it worked out.Mark Link to post Share on other sites
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