"This limit crap ain't real poker..."

[TS Clark 0]

I live in Salt Lake City -- not the poker mecca of the United States. So, my brick-and-mortar card playing has been confined to trips to Vegas. However, I wanted to play badly enough this week that I closed down the office early yesterday and drove the two hours to Wendover, NV.I had heard that there was a nice, non-smoking cardroom at the Rainbow. It was true -- very nice room, friendly folks, reasonably breathable air. Good times.Not surprisingly for a small to medium size room, there wasn't a big selection of games -- 2-5 limit hold 'em with a kill, and a 10-20 hold 'em game. They had a limit tourney last night, but I hear after that tourney they also spread a 4-8 Omaha 8OB. Had to get home at a reasonable time, so couldn't stay to see that.Anyway, I bought into the 2-5 game and sat down. Pretty interesting assortment of characters -- your usual retiree set, a big Indian guy, couple of college kids with baseball caps on (though one had a Red Sox hat on, so I liked him right away), a couple of ladies, and the rest of us non-descript sorts.Which brings me to the title of my post. The twenty-something guy sitting to me was a real wannabe poker badass -- bald, red hoodie, had his i-Pod on and his intimidating poker stare going. Talking the talk -- like a Tilt character. During the next two hours, I was endlessly amused by his running commentary on how limit poker sucks because you can't bluff anyone off hands, everyone calls everything, every chases, etc.. Chatting with him, he told me that he'd been at the table since 11am and had dropped $200 so far. This was, he said, mostly because none of the %@#$$ knew anything about poker.I nodded sympathetically. Because, of course, he's right. It's clearly not poker when you can't just glare at a person and say "Raise!" in a badass tone and have them scurry away from their hand like a guilty three year old. And I totally agreed with him when he told me that he'd be mopping up the game because he would have "gone all in like five times and people would have went, Whoa! and folded." This guy was clearly just not in his element -- that of the true poker player. No analytical skill should be needed to thrive, just the ability to say, "All in!"I left a little while after he left to go play in the tourny (where he doubtless met with more frustration, since it was a limit affair), but stopped to pat him on the back before I went and tell him how much I enjoyed playing with him. He asked how I did and I was deeply ashamed to tell him I came out $82 ahead, despite my lack of ability to snarl and bluff all my chips.Oh, there are more stories I could share -- about the apalling loose play of 90% of players that sat at the table during the 3.5 hours I was there (people raising and re-raising each other with bottom pair and no kickers), the crazy Latino guy next to me who literally raised every pot and called to the river with nothing (saying that he had only seen poker on TV and never played before -- God bless the WPT), etc.. But, mostly, my sweet, sweet memories of the Rainbow poker room will be Mr. This-Ain't-Real-Poker. Oh, how I love the no-limit experts (the uneducated ones, not the serious thoughtful ones). They're so misunderstood. They're so ANGRY that they must suffer the slings and arrows of low-limit limit poker. WHY AM I NOT RESPECTED? WHY ARE THESE PEOPLE CALLING? Meanwhile, this guy was betting into or calling literally two-thirds of the pots.Love them. Love. Them.Sorry for the length of the post. It was just so delightful and educational for me to sit next to this budding Brunson and listen to him hold forth. Oh, and take his money, of course. :-)

[Kappa1873 0]

I thoroughly enjoyed this read.I, too, can't stand the way that people are unable to distinguish between Limit and No Limit, as if all poker must be played the same way. They fail to realize that each game has its own nuiances and that you must adjust to each in order to be successful.I also applaud you for being a good sport to this guy, even though it must have been painstaking to listen to him drone on for hours about how "this ain't poker."But hey, he DID have an Ipod and a hoodie, so maybe he knew what he was talking about. :roll:

[WaffleMcHat 0]

Your descriptions made me realize that I pretty much look for three things when I select my low limit tables at our casino1) Sunglasses - I have yet to see anyone who wears sunglasses at a low limit table know what the hell they are doing. They are pointless and anyone who is good at limit knows this.2) Women - Now this one is bad I know but honestly 99% of the women I have seen have been downright awful. They call with anything until the river. Obviously this isnt the case for all women, many are damn good but you can spot the good ones easily.3) College Kids - Yes I fit in this category but lets face it most pokers players in this age group are bad. They are victims of TV poker and dormroom poker games and do not know what they are doing. These are some harsh stereotypes but in my limited experience I have found them to be true to some extent. I mean when I select a table I always look for these 3 things and it seems the more there are the looser they are.

[Socrates 0]

This is hilarious. I know what you're talking about. One of the most annoying things to me is when you say poker, most people now automatically assume you mean NLHE Tourney. I've even messed with people who talk as if they are great poker players by inviting them over for a poker tournament...after they buy-in and sit down I state the game is Omaha or Stud and they freak out. After asking what the problem is they say they don't even know the game. Obviously I move the game back to NLHE, but laugh and make comments about it all night just to piss them off. The other one is inviting people over and then telling them it's limit. Most say they know how to play, but then always try to raise 3-5 bets when leading out after the flop. I do have a good reason for the second one, I've had a couple of friends who say they've read books and have gotten better etc... only to rasie 500 UTG and then fold to a guy who moves all in for an additional 75 chips. Asked him for his reasoning and he said he was on a bluff. He had 600 chips when he made this so called bluff at a 10 handed table, turned over his 24o and said "explain to me why you're saying I had to call him" - I just laughed and told him to keep reading.Now, I don't do this to make fun of anyone or call anyone out. I've just simply stated on many occasion that poker consists of more games than just NLHE and they always agree, but never want to play another game becasue they don't know how. I'm fine with it, the solid players will just keep taking their money.

[KDawgCometh 2]

what people need to learn is that there is always more than one way to skin a cat. I play primarily limit, but that is because I'm not a big fan of big swings that happen in No limit. My favorite game to play is PLO, as this game takes a tremndous amount of skill to play right. There are many who think that in Omaha that you can play any hand, hehe. I like to play as many different games as possible and have recently really gotten into Lowball as its fun to think the opposite of what you normally think. So what is the point of all of that, any poker is good poker and to be good at poker you need to be well rounded. I just love it when people roll their eyes back and say "you can't protect your hand in Limit, You can't bluff" well guess what I will bluff in limit, you just need to know how to do it right

[gar 0]

2) Women - Now this one is bad I know but honestly 99% of the women I have seen have been downright awful. They call with anything until the river. Obviously this isnt the case for all women, many are damn good but you can spot the good ones easily.I tend to classify oriental women as rocks if I havent seen them before.

[custom36 5]

Limit hold'em is a completely different game than no limit. Honestly, I've played limit poker and lost most of what I brought to the table. I've gotta hand it to you guys that can play limit well because I can't play worth anything. That's why I stick to the no-limit tables. I consider myself a pretty good no limit player, but if you want to stick me into a limit game, you'd might as well just ask for all of my money.This guy clearly didn't know what he was talking about and you should have sat at every table he did.

[TS Clark 0]

On the women front, I have strangely had pretty different experiences with the few that I've played with on my occasional forays into B&M cardrooms. I've never played with one that I considered a really good player (though I haven't sat with a lot of guys in low limit games that I was say were much good either), but I haven't played with any awful ones either.The two ladies I sat with last night at the Rainbow were decent players. They didn't show terribly good judgement about starting hands (though, again, they were a heck of a lot better than some of the guys), but both of them didn't play many hands that were downright awful, and both showed decent judgement post-flop. I mean, they weren't too aggressive and didn't raise much (in other words, typical passive low-limiters), but they could make some judgements about flop texture and knew when to lay things down if the board got too scary and they didn't have a piece of it. Both of them left with more money in their stacks than they had when I sat down, so I thought that was a pretty good indication that they weren't just fish. And both were very pleasant and polite -- two qualities that I value highly in anybody (male or female) I have to sit in close confines with for several hours.Of course, your mileage may vary with your experiences.

[epistemic 0]

I've never been miffed by other people's nuances, or their ability to drown themselves in pure fantasy. I liked your post because it showed a table manner that is correct.I figure you have to humor strangers when their ignorance benefits you.Out

[JustinHEMI04 0]

I love these too. I espescially love when they venture up to 20-40 or above. When their tuition money is gone in one hand, you can find them back at 1-2 a little later. I thrive in limit. I suck at no limit. Justin

[RonBurgundy 0]

whats this crazy limit thing you guys keep talking about, u mean you can't go all in? tell me it aint so joe. JK of course but i am 16 and play limit play money online. I think if i ever tried to talk about it in my home game my buddies heads would explode

[KDawgCometh 2]

I really love limit, I don't know why exactly. It really keeps my mind going at all times. You really need to pay attention to people's styles, isolation plays and all that fun stuff. Whenever me and my roomate try bringing up playing limit all people do is roll their eyes. Variety is the spice of life

[Suited_Up 2]

I really love limit, I don't know why exactly. It really keeps my mind going at all times. You really need to pay attention to people's styles, isolation plays and all that fun stuff. Whenever me and my roomate try bringing up playing limit all people do is roll their eyes. Variety is the spice of life

CAUSE THEY'RE STUPID!!!

[troutsmart 0]

Good post TS.I too am a Utah guy and have made many a trip out to the rainbow casino in Wendover, NV. For most of you who haven't had the blessing of going to Wendover, I'll paint a brief picture. From the picturesque valley of Salt Lake City, you head west across 90 miles of desolation. The Bonneville Salt Flats may be where many speed records have taken place, but for anybody heading to Wendover, they guard a little town that rests on the Utah-Nevada border. Two lanes of highway cut across the vast emptyness. At times, water will gather near the highway, but the only other change of scenery is a large sculpture of a tree that an artist mysteriously built in the middle of this lonely stretch of road. Tracks of tires are forever embedded into the salt where tired drivers have fallen victim to the trancelike state you find yourself in. You imagine it happening, at least I do, dozing off and leaving the road, skidding across the salt. The only comforting thought in this is the fact that there are no trees, buildings, or anything of subtance in which to hit. So, for those who gamble and need a place to wet their appetite, they drive across what I've taken to calling "death's corridor." Fortunatley, just when you think you'll end up another mark in time, or plain go crazy, a small group of lights appear in the horizon. There you'll find the Rainbow poker room, among a few casinos, a McDonalds, and Burger King. At the Rainbow casino is one of the greatest group of dealers you'll likely find anywhere. The weekends are filled with regulars who brave "death's corridor." Mixed among the regulars are those looking for a little entertainment apart from Utah's reletively mellow nights. The college kid wears his hoodie, and dreams of winning a WTP event, while listening to Limp Bizkit on his IPOD. I know these guys. I play with them in house games, where they talk about pot odds, all the while proclaiming that an education is unneccessary, because they won a tournament online last week, beating 1200 players for a $4000 prize. They ride a bus out on Friday mornings with 80 senior citizens, who carry enough of their social security check to play the slot machines until the bus returns to Salt Lake at 5pm. The young kid stays behind, because the casino has generouslly comped him a room for the weekend, though he'll only use it for a few brief hours of forced sleep each of the 3 days he'll be there. He'll eat free meals, some in the casino restauraunts, but most he'll eat while he plays, out of a small white styrofoam container brought by a waitress to whom he'll give a blue $1 chip or two for her efforts. He is in fact better than most of the players at the table, yet week in and week out, he'll struggle to beat them. This despite mainly playing in that 2-5 game with a killpot, a game which doesn't sound so intimidating. With a good Friday behind him, he'll put his name on the list for the 10-20 game, and sit down with a group that not entirely unlike him, venture to Wendover each weekend. They are for the most part well practiced in their art and deem their weekends profitable. Our college student feels he can beat this game as he is no longer sitting with a table full of calling stations. He does, in fact, beat the game on occasion, but often returns the next weekend having to repeat the procedure again. How do I know about this college kid? I was almost him. For a few weeks, I rode that bus, and stayed in a free room, ate free food, and generally struggled to beat the lowest limit game, while taking a shot at the bigger game on a good weekend. I had allies in my cause. They were they of whom you speak. I decided not to go that route, and I rarely go to Wendover these days, but the last time I went, they were there, still trying to beat that "2-5" limit game, while praising the game of No Limit, still hopeful.I don't mean to demean. It is a good thing to have a dream, which they have. I simply become slightly concerned when I think about that face surrounded by that hoodie. There is a smart kid underneath there, who has decided that his greatest talent is knowing the odds and spotting a tell. He might very well, maybe in the near future, break through and become a "name player" who appears on the cover of Card Player and travels the tournament circuit. If anyone, it is likely to be somebody like him, who happens to catch a break. However, more than likely he'll have dropped his college classes, and find himself grinding it out at a job that hardly acknowledges his real talents, which in fact, have nothing to do with poker.When I think of Wendover TS, I too think about that college kid. I think about a drive across "death's corridor", and a few dealers who make playing cards a pleasure. Mostly, I think about how I rode a bus while my friends were with girls, all because I was a good No Limit player, who hated to play limit. Things change I suppose, except for that 90 miles of road that cuts across the Bonneville Salt Flats.

[bourbenz 0]

great stories the first one and the last one :-)

[tentenoffsuit 0]

I think if i was a middle-aged, graying white woman right now, i'd retire and learn everything about poker that I could. How many college kids and smart-ass businessmen are going to give this woman respect at a table? Not many.Find this woman, teach her, and stake her. NOW!

[Waffles2003 1]

TS and Trout, I am also from Utah(Davis County) and I know too well about the Wendover experience. I am now a family man so poker trips are only 1-3 times a year when i drive down to vegas with friends. Of course, there are always local games of no limit every other friday.great stories

[Smasharoo 0]

My favorite game to play is PLO, as this game takes a tremndous amount of skill to play rightNot really. A lot less than Holdem against bad players. The advantage of the skilled player of the unskilled player is just much larger. That doesn't mean it takes more skill to play right.

[planoace 0]

troutsmart, great piece of writing! Thanks for sharing one of your talents with us.

[troutsmart 0]

troutsmart, great piece of writing! Thanks for sharing one of your talents with us.Thank you for your compliment. I'm happy to find that what I write doesn't give one the urge do something harmful.

[Nikki_N 17]

Your descriptions made me realize that I pretty much look for three things when I select my low limit tables at our casino2) Women - Now this one is bad I know but honestly 99% of the women I have seen have been downright awful. They call with anything until the river. Obviously this isnt the case for all women, many are damn good but you can spot the good ones easily.

When I read this, I was angry. Then I realized I don't like to play with women because many of them call as you describe . I still think your 99% "statistic" is way the hell off. Nikki

[KDawgCometh 2]

Your descriptions made me realize that I pretty much look for three things when I select my low limit tables at our casino2) Women - Now this one is bad I know but honestly 99% of the women I have seen have been downright awful. They call with anything until the river. Obviously this isnt the case for all women, many are damn good but you can spot the good ones easily.

When I read this, I was angry. Then I realized I don't like to play with women because many of them call as you describe . I still think your 99% "statistic" is way the hell off. Nikki

when I'm selecting a game women in it do help, why?, because a decent amount are passive. I tend to avoid the college aged girls that sit at the table because from my experience they are there to fool you into thinking that they know nothing. I select the games carefully watching all tables for a while so that I know which one is best. Its very easy to put people into sterotypes as I've come across some humble looking older men who are dead nasty. Actually the one sterotype that always works is the college age guys with sunglasses and ipod and trying to look like Phil Laak, most of the time they are just posers who think that they are good