Footballguru 0 Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 I mean, give me a fkin break. IMO i played this as well as possible and still lost. gawd #2 in chips down to average. Sometimes i hate poker :twisted: Hand #4510254-169 at Sat12pmA-009 (No Limit tournament Hold'em)Powered by UltimateBetStarted at 19/Feb/05 14:45:56 Nasty_Nizzle is at seat 0 with 17190. waltz6 is at seat 1 with 9305. john06 is at seat 2 with 4745. fastbret is at seat 3 with 9850. DaTruPoker is at seat 5 with 26350. CRH 3 is at seat 6 with 3890. HopeToWinSome is at seat 7 with 2735. kapaluakid is at seat 8 with 14795. DOG101 is at seat 9 with 7240. The button is at seat 1. Nasty_Nizzle posts ante (100). DOG101 posts ante (100). kapaluakid posts ante (100). HopeToWinSome posts ante (100). CRH 3 posts ante (100). DaTruPoker posts ante (100). fastbret posts ante (100). john06 posts ante (100). waltz6 posts ante (100). fastbret posts the small blind of 400. DaTruPoker posts the big blind of 800. Nasty_Nizzle: -- -- waltz6: -- -- john06: -- -- fastbret: -- -- DaTruPoker: Qc Qh CRH 3: -- -- HopeToWinSome: -- -- kapaluakid: -- -- DOG101: -- --Pre-flop: CRH 3 folds. HopeToWinSome folds. kapaluakid folds. DOG101 folds. Nasty_Nizzle raises to 2200. waltz6 folds. john06 folds. fastbret folds. DaTruPoker calls. Flop (board: 8c 7s 2c): DaTruPoker checks. Nasty_Nizzle bets 3600. DaTruPoker raises to 8000. Nasty_Nizzle goes all-in for 14890. DaTruPoker calls. Tournament all-in showdown -- players show: Nasty_Nizzle shows As Kh. DaTruPoker shows Qc Qh. Link to post Share on other sites
firstyearclay 0 Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 Well What happened? Link to post Share on other sites
custom36 4 Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 The other guy caught an A or a K.That's what happens man. Get over it. Link to post Share on other sites
Backler 0 Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 That sucks, got your hand in with the best of it, he got lucky.That's Poker Baby! Link to post Share on other sites
KDawgCometh 2 Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 honestly, you should've reraised him preflop. YOu have a big hand and he didn't even raise it three times the blind, granted he would've called you but a nice reraise says that you have Queens, Kings, or Aces Link to post Share on other sites
Footballguru 0 Posted February 19, 2005 Author Share Posted February 19, 2005 funny thing he just got moved to my table and had 7k in chips wtf??? just got also while im still in...pathetico yea he spiekd ace on 5th street against my qq Link to post Share on other sites
Footballguru 0 Posted February 19, 2005 Author Share Posted February 19, 2005 honestly, you should've reraised him preflop. YOu have a big hand and he didn't even raise it three times the blind, granted he would've called you but a nice reraise says that you have Queens, Kings, or Aceswhy would i want to do this?? he would have moved in on me either giving me 57/43 fav or i fold and lose alot of chips. i was about 90% sure he had ak since he limped with kk a few hands before, so I just wanted to see if a or k on flop... Link to post Share on other sites
KDawgCometh 2 Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 honestly, you should've reraised him preflop. YOu have a big hand and he didn't even raise it three times the blind, granted he would've called you but a nice reraise says that you have Queens, Kings, or Aceswhy would i want to do this?? he would have moved in on me either giving me 57/43 fav or i fold and lose alot of chips. i was about 90% sure he had ak since he limped with kk a few hands before, so I just wanted to see if a or k on flop...the reason is this, if he is any decent of a player why would you want a 1 in 3 shot at being 57/43 and the other two times being dominated. Your smooth call could've been disatorus if a King or an Ace flopped as you wasted an opportunity preflop to put him to a decision preflop. Queens are a very good hand but much more vulnerable then you'd think. Since he was gonna put his money in anyway then at least make him think some more preflop. Your trap backfired this time, but it is a lot eaiser to get Queens beat than you think. If he had a mid PP then you priced him into calling preflop and he might've hit a set then you'd be complaining about how unlucky you were with your queens. Do you see what I'm saying. You played them way to passively, granted he made a bad flop play, but you should've made a nice reraise preflop as he could've been making that type of raise with 88 or 77 which is not unreasonable to think either Link to post Share on other sites
Footballguru 0 Posted February 19, 2005 Author Share Posted February 19, 2005 thanks for your responseagain, i was pretty sure he didnt have aa or kk since just before this hand he limped with KK. i wanted him to be in the hand with 77 or 88, do i not? i can win a big pot if the board is all low cards...i understand where you are coming from and qq is not a huge hand, i know, buti dont see ur logic Into wanting him to fold a mid PP preflop when he is 7-1 against to make his set... Link to post Share on other sites
Socrates 0 Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 Have to ask yourself, if he moved all in preflop, we're you calling? Re-raising would have been the correct play in that situation IMO. By smooth calling you're asking for trouble, what if he had 8s or 7s - you're done on the flop and by not betting the flop, you showed weakness, then what could appear an attempt at stealing it by reraising. Again this is all IMO, I'm sure there are plenty of high school expert players on here who can correct me. Link to post Share on other sites
KDawgCometh 2 Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 thanks for your responseagain, i was pretty sure he didnt have aa or kk since just before this hand he limped with KK. i wanted him to be in the hand with 77 or 88, do i not? i can win a big pot if the board is all low cards...i understand where you are coming from and qq is not a huge hand, i know, buti dont see ur logic Into wanting him to fold a mid PP preflop when he is 7-1 against to make his set...its about making them define their hand, that's what its about. in this case they would've flopped a set and the title would've been "Another bad beat story", you dig. You need to make them define your hand, its best not to get fancy all that often Link to post Share on other sites
vyrusguy 0 Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 shit happens...get over it Link to post Share on other sites
Smasharoo 0 Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 Raise pre-flop.You played it terribly. Link to post Share on other sites
mreevit 0 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 IMHO you should've reraised before the flop, but you didn't. I like the check-raise on the flop, but you shouldn't have raised that little. (Check-raising is a good move because you knew he would bet at it.) The pot was big enough at that point for you to push all of your chips in and take it down. I doubt he would've called with Ace high. Link to post Share on other sites
Footballguru 0 Posted February 20, 2005 Author Share Posted February 20, 2005 I appreciate all of this. But if i re raise him he moves in 99% of the time. I am forced to fold the best hand when this happens, why w0uld I want that? Link to post Share on other sites
KDawgCometh 2 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 I appreciate all of this. But if i re raise him he moves in 99% of the time. I am forced to fold the best hand when this happens, why w0uld I want that?and how praetell are you going to have to fold the hand if you raised preflop. Lets take a look at all of the pot odds( you need to check raise much more, like push it allin)Preflop: t2100(blinds and antes)+2200(from AK)(so he bet the pot)+2200(your smooth call)(note you should've reraised it to like 6000 here)flop:6500(preflop action)+3600(he bets a little over half the pot, weakness you should push in)=10100+8000(your checkraise)=18100(now notice that he has to pay only 4400 to call here hie is getting more than 4:1 on his call alone he has the odds to outdraw you, but wait also notice that he has comitted already 5800 to this pot before his call which is almost a third of his chips not to mention if he just call this will leave him with only t7000, guess what you priced him into moving in) now do you see how this wasn't well played Link to post Share on other sites
LeeDanger 0 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 I dont know your opponent but to me I think you played it wrong for this reason.... You smooth call his raise on a blind with everyone else out of the pot. He might immediately think that you are on high unpaired cards. In this case I don't think he necessarily made a bad play, he probably thought you had nothing as well, I can't remember exactly how you said it went but if he pushed all in on that board I personally think it's a good play because I can't put you on queens here(this is probably why you say you played it perfectly), however if he called I'm not sure it was a good play with your check raise being there but he probably thought he had the best hand. Link to post Share on other sites
holybejeesusx 0 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 look, this is tournament poker here. if he pushes preflop, he's begging for a coinflip. see a flop, find out where you are at, and go from there. he played it fine, except the check-raise should have been a check-push. Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 honestly, you should've reraised him preflop. YOu have a big hand and he didn't even raise it three times the blind, granted he would've called you but a nice reraise says that you have Queens, Kings, or Aceswhy would i want to do this?? he would have moved in on me either giving me 57/43 fav or i fold and lose alot of chips. i was about 90% sure he had ak since he limped with kk a few hands before, so I just wanted to see if a or k on flop...the reason is this, if he is any decent of a player why would you want a 1 in 3 shot at being 57/43 and the other two times being dominated. Your smooth call could've been disatorus if a King or an Ace flopped as you wasted an opportunity preflop to put him to a decision preflop. Queens are a very good hand but much more vulnerable then you'd think. Since he was gonna put his money in anyway then at least make him think some more preflop. Your trap backfired this time, but it is a lot eaiser to get Queens beat than you think. If he had a mid PP then you priced him into calling preflop and he might've hit a set then you'd be complaining about how unlucky you were with your queens. Do you see what I'm saying. You played them way to passively, granted he made a bad flop play, but you should've made a nice reraise preflop as he could've been making that type of raise with 88 or 77 which is not unreasonable to think eitherRe-raising here pre flop would be very stupid., he was the original raiser, with big slick, i'd bet all my savings that he would call a re-raise, and if ace or king hit on the flop.. then what???.. then the guy with Q, Q, is in the shidder. He made the right move, but I dont think the check after the flop was very smart., U didnt have a great hand., but u did have the best hand at that point, and i'm sure you were aware you did., so betting the pot would have made it almost impossible for him to call.,Think of this.. in a situation like you just had., its like your crossing a busy street., the flop comes, and your queens are high. now your half way across., . checking is like stopping in the middle of the street., it just doesnt make sense. Link to post Share on other sites
LeeDanger 0 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 I still think by reraising that you gain more information about your opponents hand and can act accordingly. If you just call, you don't really know what you're up against and makes your reads more challenging. Link to post Share on other sites
Mister Hand 0 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 I agree with reraising, and would probably reraise all-in with the queens. But I don't really understand all of this "reraising to get information" talk. What kind of information are you looking for? How will you determine if he has aces or kings? If he goes all in after you reraise preflop? Are you going to fold the queens if he does? If you won't, I think you might as well reraise all-in in the first place. By reraising all-in, you're making him pay dearly to call if he raised preflop with a hand like AJ or (less likely, due to your hand) AQ. Make it as expensive as possible to draw to that ace. He could also be raising with a hand like a medium pair, and be willing to call your all-in reraise thinking (or hoping) that you "just" have AK. This would be ideal, as you're a 4-1 favorite. Also, what if you don't reraise all-in, and he calls you. You still each have over 10K in chips, and the flop comes A-x-x. If he goes all-in, will you fold him? Again, if not, then I think you might as well reraise all-in preflop.If you will fold to a flopped ace, you risk getting bluffed out by a hand like JJ. I could see perhaps being more cautious if your stacks were roughly equal. But the worst case scenario is that if he outdraws you, or even has AA or KK (which you find unlikely based on the way you saw him play KK previously). If you lose this hand, you're not out of the tournament. You're not even short-stacked, from what you're saying. Even the "coinflip" of AK is really about 57% in your favor. I just don't understand how a smaller reraise is going to help you "find out where you're at." Link to post Share on other sites
LeeDanger 0 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 Essentially what you're doing is telling him..."You can play this hand but it's going to cost you all of your chips." You're putting him to a decision, he has to also figure that if he is going to play that particular hand that it is going to cost him all of his chips regardless because no matter what flops with the amount of chips already in the pot one of the two players is going to be all-in on the flop. Of course a lot of this has to do with table image, but as the original poster said, he put him on a hand like AK, so why wouldn't you want to reraise in this situation if you are confident that you are ahead, I don't understand that since you know that AK would at least call you. Link to post Share on other sites
Footballguru 0 Posted February 20, 2005 Author Share Posted February 20, 2005 thanks for all the responses. In theory of poker to paraphrase sklansky he says somethign similar to that if anytime you play your hand the same way you would have played it if you knew ur opponents hole cards, u gain. i feel i did this except my re raise on the flop should have been a bit larger not to give him correct odds to draw to 6 outs. i guess i was caught up in the moment and my math was off. hindsight is 20/20.any comments on what sklansky says? very interesting repsones so far from many points of view... Link to post Share on other sites
LeeDanger 0 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 just out of curiosity football, what was the buy-in for that event? Link to post Share on other sites
KDawgCometh 2 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 I think that its: anytime you play your hand in a way that you can see your opponents cards you gain, any time you play your hand in a way that your opponent could see your cards you lose. Basically you needed to gain more information from this guy preflop Link to post Share on other sites
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