hopeless bluffs

[nachunja 0]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxUTG+1 ($248.40)MP1 ($326.80)Hero ($236.80)MP3 ($312.05)CO ($198.95)Button ($199.20)SB ($273.70)BB ($180.25)UTG ($195)Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K:spade:, J:spade:. SB posts a blind of $1. UTG calls $2, 2 folds, UTG calls $4.Flop: ($21) 4:diamond:, 9:spade:, 5:heart: (3 players)UTG checks, Hero bets $10, CO calls $10, UTG folds.Turn: ($41) 5:diamond: (2 players)Hero bets $20, CO calls $20.River: ($81) T:heart: (2 players)Hero checks, CO bets $59, Hero folds.Final Pot: $140is this wrong from PF?just give up on the flop?i understand that my river play was very very weak

[Limit Player 0]

what range of hands are you putting him on? Mid pockets, something like QK?Betting half the pot on the flop and turn seems weak, in my opinion. If you're aiming to buy this pot, make a stronger turn bet.

[srblan 0]

I don't mind PF, but why keep firing if you keep getting called? I might even try a checkraise on the flop if I was really trying to show strength.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

eh... I really don't mind it.I like the river fold... and I like the flop-and-turn-creativity. If he shows that much resistance... it's time to give it up.Nice hand.

[iggymcfly 0]

Yeah, I don't see anything wrong with this at all. You've still got overs on the turn, and after the flop, there's a good chance that he's just got overs, and will fold to another bet. By the river, you know you're behind, and that it will be extremely difficult to get him off the hand, so you just let go.This is a volume play. You get him to fold enough to make it profitable, and you make sure that you get paid off when you do have a hand. I think that in the long run, this should work out fine for you.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Depends on what kind of villain you've got here. What kind of Calling Pattern does he fall into?From the Book of Bluffs:CP1 = rock (folds before the flop unless they have strong starting cards)CP2 = calls pre-flop, but folds if they don't like the flopCP3 = calls pre-flop and on the flop, but folds if they haven't improved by the turnCP4 = calls all the way to the river, but folds if they haven't made a handCP5 = calling station (won't fold even if there's little chance of winning)Now I used to just assume that all of my opponents were CP2. So if I'd raised pre-flop and continuation bet the flop, I'd often find myself checking the turn if I hadn't improved significantly. However, a lot of opponents are CP3. Therefore, I've started to test people for CP3 by firing that second bullet, and I've had good results. Testing them for CP4 is quite a bit riskier.

[Jordan 1]

I'll bluff the flop very often, turn depends. I can't put a number on it cause it depends.But I could claim with accuracy I've picked up a lot of pots by throwing another bet on the turn.Bluffing the river is difficult, especially if called down on both the flop/turn...I think bluffing the river is really read depenedent. Not only of your opponent but of how he may or may not be reading you.I think I'm a good bluffer though. It's def. made me more than not ever bluffing.- Jordan

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

I play it the same, more times than not, though, maybe not quite from that early of position--but that's not much of an issue.Flash the K and mumble something about "AK never comes home for me.." and throw the cards away on the river. Another good example of how important position really is.

[Jadaki 0]

Am I the only one who doesn't constatly raise preflop with KJs? Exspecially from any position before CO?I see a lot of people doing and a lot of them are posting here after losing and hand and trying to figure out what to do with it next time. Everyone knows a hand like AQ is a trap hand, but KJ is dominated so many different ways that the hand just frightens me.

[oceansize 0]

Just to play devils advocate, I agree with J actually. KJ suited might be a good enough hand to play from position, but acting early with it too long is a chip burner. I don't mind the preflop bet, I don't even mind the flop bet, but when that turn comes...only a King or Jack on the river improves your hand, and the reason for folding the river is probably because you think he at least paired the board (Maybe AT, JT, T9 or Ax suited to the diamonds, x5?). You fold on the river because you think you are behind or losing right? And in turn, while your putting him on a hand, he's putting you on one, probably over cards with your preflop raise. So, even if he has no hand on the river, he is in position to bet out on you because he is sure that you have not made a hand with your check.So knowing that, why would you bet the turn? Could have saved yourself $20. Bluffs need to be believable, but you need position on them also. Because you act early, to bluff correctly you probably needed to check raise the turn or fold your hand there.

[Scott3705 0]

What are your usual continuation bets? 1/2 pot. w/ 2 callers? If you've downshifted here, then CO may be construing your smallish flop bet as weakness. That's my only real issue w/ the hand. if 1/2 pot is standard for you, then, that's fine. I'd consider betting more tho w/ 2 callers in the pot.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Am I the only one who doesn't constatly raise preflop with KJs? Exspecially from any position before CO?I see a lot of people doing and a lot of them are posting here after losing and hand and trying to figure out what to do with it next time. Everyone knows a hand like AQ is a trap hand, but KJ is dominated so many different ways that the hand just frightens me.

Raise 'til ya have a reason not to!

[Jadaki 0]

Am I the only one who doesn't constatly raise preflop with KJs? Exspecially from any position before CO?I see a lot of people doing and a lot of them are posting here after losing and hand and trying to figure out what to do with it next time. Everyone knows a hand like AQ is a trap hand, but KJ is dominated so many different ways that the hand just frightens me.

Raise 'til ya have a reason not to!

Such as?Seriously, I think raising KJs out of position is -EVIf you raise you are getting called by AK, KQ, AJ and several other hands that have you dominated if you pair up. Top pair with KJ isn't that strong. I view it as a suited connector, and I play it like one. This might be a bit weak, but I guarantee I win more with it than I lose and I have never raised with it preflop in a ring game unless I am on the button.

[Scott3705 0]

Such as?Seriously, I think raising KJs out of position is -EVIf you raise you are getting called by AK, KQ, AJ and several other hands that have you dominated if you pair up. Top pair with KJ isn't that strong. I view it as a suited connector, and I play it like one. This might be a bit weak, but I guarantee I win more with it than I lose and I have never raised with it preflop in a ring game unless I am on the button.

DD plays more hands than most so he needs to raise w/ these types of hands. He's not trying to go broke on a j high flop. He's just trying to stay agressive and make people pick up hands while he picks up small pots until he finds a spot to try to take a big one.I disagree w/ your assessment of what's calling behind us. You're range is much to small. I'd group PP's playing for set value, suited connectors, and some times Ax sutied in here as well. MP2 is a funny type of spot to play. it's still early so you want to keep you're raising requirements somewhat tight. But then again it's late enough that limping is just wreaks of weakness. KJ, yes it's a trap hand and in a tough game, i may just fold this if I think i'm going to be put to a tough decision. i think most games are soft and transparent enough that you play kj pretty safely after the flop.

[Jadaki 0]

DD plays more hands than most so he needs to raise w/ these types of hands. He's not trying to go broke on a j high flop. He's just trying to stay agressive and make people pick up hands while he picks up small pots until he finds a spot to try to take a big one.I disagree w/ your assessment of what's calling behind us. You're range is much to small. I'd group PP's playing for set value, suited connectors, and some times Ax sutied in here as well. MP2 is a funny type of spot to play. it's still early so you want to keep you're raising requirements somewhat tight. But then again it's late enough that limping is just wreaks of weakness. KJ, yes it's a trap hand and in a tough game, i may just fold this if I think i'm going to be put to a tough decision. i think most games are soft and transparent enough that you play kj pretty safely after the flop.

I have played quite a few hours with DD live, so I understand his style. The list of hands I was listing are hands that are going to call and have you dominated if you hit top pair. Sure other hands are going to call, I was just pointing out why I think raising with KJs from early position is a bad play. Your behind almost any hand that calls except a smaller suited connecter.Raising it from MP2 with any solid players behind you, has to be a poor play if you do it everytime.

[Scott3705 0]

 I have played quite a few hours with DD live, so I understand his style.  The list of hands I was listing are hands that are going to call and have you dominated if you hit top pair.  Sure other hands are going to call, I was just pointing out why I think raising with KJs from early position is a bad play.  Your behind almost any hand that calls except a smaller suited connecter.Raising it from MP2 with any solid players behind you, has to be a poor play if you do it everytime.

Like i said earlier, MP2 is just one of the iffy areas for me. I think you can raise this enough times and still stay out of trouble. Unsuited i probably fold. Suited I want to play it. But I really don't like limping here. i like to open pots for a raise usually.