$50 to $1000 on pstars day 20

[Guest]

wrto, i was only upset when you said "it's all the same" without bothering to read the thread. its fine to disagree... but there is an argument for maximizing EV by checking the flop.examples:loose player bets out on the turn. that's 0.50 instead of 0.25. +0.25.turn brings a card that puts 2 cards of one suit on the board, possible flush draw. if there were 2 cards of one suit on the flop, turn could bring the 3rd, making a possible flush draw for a chaser.turn brings a Q J 10, making any loose opponent with a Q, J or 10 chase after you bet the turn, or bet out 0.50, and end up paying 1.00 after the C/R.and on and on...even loose players are not going to call with just a Q or J or 10 on a flop of A A K.how am i disagreeing with sklansky?

[Awful 0]

oh no! i missed out on a quarter!you don't flop full houses a lot you know.

That statement is just ignorant. Don't play at a level where you don't want to maximize return because that's what winning poker is. Amassing every edge possible so that the math can take over and your +EV betting becomes steady profit for you. You summed it up; you missed 1/2 a BB. You're not making it up in anywhere later this play, so you'll need to flop more full houses to make up for your inability to extract the maximum on those you do. That's luck, not skill.Secondly, this is a dangerous hand to slowplay. Given the commonness of Ax at this level, a free card beats you MORE OFTEN than it makes a second best hand. Draws have odds to chase anyways and perceive greater implied odds for themselves since the opponent has trips. Making them pay to draw here is still good because while you want them to hit, they're not paying you off when they missed, and they will chase regardless. 2/3 to 9/10 of the time, you're giving free cards that, while they can hurt you (when someone is slowplaying their now-beastly A-2), they don't help you do anything but miss bets. 1/3 of the time, they make a hand that can pay you off on 1 street, by sacrificing 2 streets of betting.Also, with a big hand, it's good to see if there's another big hand out there so you get unlimited action on each street. This is limit; you can only get so many bets in at a time. A capped flop, 3-bet turn, and 1 bet on the river is better than a checked-around flop, check-called turn, capped river. Due to the propensity of others to slowplay improperly, you could be missing many, many bets because they'll get tricky like you with a hand they'd keep raising you with were you to bet out.Poker's about winning money. Not being the craftiest, sneakiest guy at your table.

[Awful 0]

how am i disagreeing with sklansky?

Slowplaying, from TOP, the 5 needs to meet:1. Strong Hand: yeah, got that2. Free Card can give 2nd best hand: Yeah, got that3. Free card WILL NOT beat you: Umm, no. And then paying off with an underfull sucks.4. Be sure you'll drive out players with aggression, and win a big pot: NO. 2 callers should have an A between them, and will raise, or broadways and some sort of draw that can be continued. Draws need to hit to pay you off, and aces will pay you off now anyways. You will win a big pot by showing aggression, but you have very few outs to win a big pot if your opponents are on a draw that they could not chase anyways.5. Pot must not be large: Not really... 3 callers on a raised pot is decent-sized on the flop. Opponents get better than 7-1 to call his flop bet (.25 for 1.85). That's enough for them to chase anyways and for you to charge the draws so they can't miss and not pay you off anyways.2 out of 5 ain't good.

[ahosang 0]

I'm not a limit expert, but aren't you only advised to slow-play a hand that is unlikely to get beat(AK would qualify here, or quad aces), and that will probably be folded to if bet? This flop in question doesn't seem to fit the slow-play criteria. The hand can quite easily be beat by Ax, and any Ace will probably call flop bets in any case. I'd agree that it should be bet. It's an underfull, for heaven's sake.Oh, I've just noticed Awful's post which says it better, but I'll post anyway.

[Guest]

That statement is just ignorant. Don't play at a level where you don't want to maximize return because that's what winning poker is. Amassing every edge possible so that the math can take over and your +EV betting becomes steady profit for you. You summed it up; you missed 1/2 a BB. You're not making it up in anywhere later this play, so you'll need to flop more full houses to make up for your inability to extract the maximum on those you do. That's luck, not skill.

ABC poker does not always maximize your return. yes, i did miss 1/2 a BB, but i intend to try to make more than that on the turn. instead of 0.25 + 0.50, i open the door and try to extract 0.50 + 0.50. thats a +EV of 0.25. see the above post before yours, and a ton of the posts above that.

Secondly, this is a dangerous hand to slowplay. Given the commonness of Ax at this level, a free card beats you MORE OFTEN than it makes a second best hand. Draws have odds to chase anyways and perceive greater implied odds for themselves since the opponent has trips. Making them pay to draw here is still good because while you want them to hit, they're not paying you off when they missed, and they will chase regardless. 2/3 to 9/10 of the time, you're giving free cards that, while they can hurt you (when someone is slowplaying their now-beastly A-2), they don't help you do anything but miss bets. 1/3 of the time, they make a hand that can pay you off on 1 street, by sacrificing 2 streets of betting.

dangerous? 0.16 % by the turn. 0.26 % by the river. ok, i can see how it will get dangerous a little bit, but an opponent with an ace is going to showdown regardless of improvement. again, i never said to sacrifice 2 STREETS of betting. read this whole thread. if you are in position or mid position, BET THE TURN. i have said this already like a million times. if you are playing with loosies, BET. if someone has an ace and you are in early position, they will most likely bet their ace and you can C/R.

Also, with a big hand, it's good to see if there's another big hand out there so you get unlimited action on each street. This is limit; you can only get so many bets in at a time. A capped flop, 3-bet turn, and 1 bet on the river is better than a checked-around flop, check-called turn, capped river. Due to the propensity of others to slowplay improperly, you could be missing many, many bets because they'll get tricky like you with a hand they'd keep raising you with were you to bet out.Poker's about winning money. Not being the craftiest, sneakiest guy at your table.

i never said anything about CHECK CALLING the turn. BAD BAD IDEA.you jumped the gun too soon to respond without actually reading anything.its part my fault for not just writing a long long post instead of breaking it down into a bunch of posts.

[MrConceit 0]

That statement is just ignorant. Don't play at a level where you don't want to maximize return because that's what winning poker is. Amassing every edge possible so that the math can take over and your +EV betting becomes steady profit for you. You summed it up; you missed 1/2 a BB. You're not making it up in anywhere later this play, so you'll need to flop more full houses to make up for your inability to extract the maximum on those you do. That's luck, not skill.

ABC poker does not always maximize your return. yes, i did miss 1/2 a BB, but i intend to try to make more than that on the turn. instead of 0.25 + 0.50, i open the door and try to extract 0.50 + 0.50. thats a +EV of 0.25. see the above post before yours, and a ton of the posts above that.

I fully agree with you that ABC poker does not always maximize edges, but it does TEND to on low limit poker. People will call 1 flop bet with the most improbable holdings, and sometimes call turn too, but especially the flop. The main advantage of a free flop is to get the double turn as you said, or maybe more if they hit a PP or some gutshot draw they wouldn't have called the flop with. But a hell of a lot of low limiters will call the flop with a gutshot, and still raise if they hit on the turn. I feel that typically you will make more long term money off letting fools pay flop bets with whatever, than trying to give them a cheap card to make a second best hand. I'm talking in this exact senario.

Secondly, this is a dangerous hand to slowplay. Given the commonness of Ax at this level, a free card beats you MORE OFTEN than it makes a second best hand. Draws have odds to chase anyways and perceive greater implied odds for themselves since the opponent has trips. Making them pay to draw here is still good because while you want them to hit, they're not paying you off when they missed, and they will chase regardless. 2/3 to 9/10 of the time, you're giving free cards that, while they can hurt you (when someone is slowplaying their now-beastly A-2), they don't help you do anything but miss bets. 1/3 of the time, they make a hand that can pay you off on 1 street, by sacrificing 2 streets of betting.

dangerous? 0.16 % by the turn. 0.26 % by the river. ok, i can see how it will get dangerous a little bit, but an opponent with an ace is going to showdown regardless of improvement.

First off, you're utterly correct that any ace is seeing the river no matter what you do. But if there is an Ace out there you'll get action, which is what you want anyway, by betting out.As far as your percents I have zero idea where you got them. Ax (x being anything other than an A or K) is 23 percent to win on the flop, and 16 percent to win on the turn. It's still 16 percent because now their outs aren't just their kicker, but also the card that came on the turn, which would give them a higher boat. Check any of my percents at twodimes.com.Btw, I did read the rest of your post, and you're not wrong that you can potentially win more money the way you said. But against typical opponents who like to call too much, it's just typically best to bet out here, and make them pay to draw. Unless you know for a fact they will bet their lower PP or utter bluff. Besides, to any player with a CLUE (and yeah, I know lots of them don't have it), your checking the flop SCREAMS of the fact that you hit and hit hard. You raised preflop, and now you're checking when the flop is AAK? Even if you have TT-QQ here, you bet out to represent the ace. Only Ax or KK checks here normally. Because they want to slowplay. Any normal preflop raiser bets here.

[Guest]

First off, you're utterly correct that any ace is seeing the river no matter what you do. But if there is an Ace out there you'll get action, which is what you want anyway, by betting out.As far as your percents I have zero idea where you got them. Ax (x being anything other than an A or K) is 23 percent to win on the flop, and 16 percent to win on the turn. It's still 16 percent because now their outs aren't just their kicker, but also the card that came on the turn, which would give them a higher boat. Check any of my percents at twodimes.com.

52 cards in the deck. 9 seat full table at poker stars. 18 cards dealt.3 card flop.31 in the remaining deck.if your opponent has an A, and the flop A A K, he has 4 outs to the turn [the case A, the 3 outs that pair the other card]4/31 ~ 13 % [my first calc was wrong]now, on the turn it gives him 3 more outs. and there are 30 cards left in the deck. 4 + 3 = 7 total outs.7 / 30 ~ 23 % [again, my first calc was wrong]also remember that the REAL percentages are smaller than the 13 % on the turn and 23 % by the river.

I did read the rest of your post, and you're not wrong that you can potentially win more money the way you said. But against typical opponents who like to call too much, it's just typically best to bet out here, and make them pay to draw. Unless you know for a fact they will bet their lower PP or utter bluff. Besides, to any player with a CLUE (and yeah, I know lots of them don't have it), your checking the flop SCREAMS of the fact that you hit and hit hard. You raised preflop, and now you're checking when the flop is AAK? Even if you have TT-QQ here, you bet out to represent the ace. Only Ax or KK checks here normally. Because they want to slowplay. Any normal preflop raiser bets here.

a lot of times i play players who will bet the turn after i raised pre-flop and checked a flop like that. i like to play the players.i do agree that checking the flop screams of slowplay. i know. but they don't know exactly that i have a full house, a bigger monster than just a set, which is not really that big of a monster.

[Smasharoo 0]

i have to disagree with wrto and smash here, i would definiately attempt to slowplay this. you WANT to give free cards to your opponents when you flop a boat.Becuase most of the time someone with an ace will be betting when I check anyway, and raising when I bet, so I get an extra be (at least) in well over 50% of the time.Check for what? No second best hands for them to make.JQ calls the flop.

[Guest]

Becuase most of the time someone with an ace will be betting when I check anyway, and raising when I bet, so I get an extra be (at least) in well over 50% of the time.Check for what? No second best hands for them to make.JQ calls the flop.

so if the person with the ace bets, raise, then the re-raise, then the cap, am i wrong? JQ calls the flop, yes, but a J individually or a Q doesn't. get it?

[Smasharoo 0]

JQ calls the flop, yes, but a J individually or a Q doesn't. get it?But they call a turn bet if they hit a J or a Q, is that it?Maybe I can check again on the turn hoping they runner runner a straight so I can get a big bet out of themOn the other hand I can make the play that makes the most money 95% of the time and bet the flop.

[Guest]

But they call a turn bet if they hit a J or a Q, is that it?Maybe I can check again on the turn hoping they runner runner a straight so I can get a big bet out of themOn the other hand I can make the play that makes the most money 95% of the time and bet the flop.

they could call a turn bet if they hit a J or Q or 10. low limit chasers that is. meaning if they have a J and hit a Q to chase a 10, or if they have a Q and hit a J to chase a 10, or if they have a 10 and hit a J or Q to chase the other one.you don't want to check the turn smash, you want to get value . you should know this. charge them on the turn if you can't get a C/R.95%? i don't think so.

[NormanHaupt 0]

shhh.. I don't mind slow players. I litterly sat and watched a dude last night.. flop trip aces and check/call his way to the river. He was so slow- he wasn't betting until the next hand started.The other part that no one's mentioned about slow playing is how the other guy feels. So he catches a pair of Q's on the turn and now thinks he's got top hand. Okay, so you extract a little bit of money out of him. What do you think he's feeling? "This f'ing moron flopped trips and he didn't bet?"That fish'll swim away. You could've sat there and robbed him all night long. I left several tables because of people with FPS. If I'm playing poorly, I'm giving my money to those players who play right.Plain and simply, slowplaying, checkraising, and doing the free card move (I used it last night, man that was fun!) is effective on tournamnets, but online, you're not only inviting disaster, but you're scaring fish away. My tables are always laughing and cold calling raises- and always full. What are your tables like?

[KDawgCometh 2]

Plain and simply, slowplaying, checkraising, and doing the free card move (I used it last night, man that was fun!) is effective on tournamnets, but online, you're not only inviting disaster, but you're scaring fish away. My tables are always laughing and cold calling raises- and always full. What are your tables like?

Nope, I think your wrong on chasing them away. Check Raising is part of the gfame and so is slowplaying along with going for a free card in ring games.You can't always play it straight, you have to make the plays that maximize your chances for profit. In the case we are talking about smash would've lost bets if he got fancy and tried for a slowplay, why give a free card when they're gonna pay you anyway

[Guest]

shhh.. I don't mind slow players. I litterly sat and watched a dude last night.. flop trip aces and check/call his way to the river. He was so slow- he wasn't betting until the next hand started.The other part that no one's mentioned about slow playing is how the other guy feels. So he catches a pair of Q's on the turn and now thinks he's got top hand. Okay, so you extract a little bit of money out of him. What do you think he's feeling? "This f'ing moron flopped trips and he didn't bet?"That fish'll swim away. You could've sat there and robbed him all night long. I left several tables because of people with FPS. If I'm playing poorly, I'm giving my money to those players who play right.Plain and simply, slowplaying, checkraising, and doing the free card move (I used it last night, man that was fun!) is effective on tournamnets, but online, you're not only inviting disaster, but you're scaring fish away. My tables are always laughing and cold calling raises- and always full. What are your tables like?

the guy you are mentioning check/calling a set of aces to the river is a moron. flopping a set and a full house is very different. so is check/calling to the river and check/raising the turn.i would only check/call the turn if i knew FOR A FACT that my opponent was bluffing and if i raised him on the turn he would fold. this has happened tons of times, and ill be able to read him and get that extra bet on the river and then raise him to him folding. and yes i play the players in low limit hold em.

[Guest]

Nope, I think your wrong on chasing them away. Check Raising is part of the gfame and so is slowplaying along with going for a free card in ring games.You can't always play it straight, you have to make the plays that maximize your chances for profit. In the case we are talking about smash would've lost bets if he got fancy and tried for a slowplay, why give a free card when they're gonna pay you anyway

they obviously didn't pay him anything on the flop. on that specific hand, he lost the chance to make more then he did.

[Guest]

come on it's really simple,if you bet outright on every street and get called down, you make +1.25 post-flop.if you C/R the turn then bet the river and get called, you make +1.50 post-flop. if you don't get to C/R the turn, bet the turn and the river and get called, you make +1.00 post-flop.same differentials when your opponent folds on the river.

[LeeDanger 0]

I agree with a check raise as well with a strong hand. If you pre-flop raised and then check the flop you are showing a sign of weakness and more likely than not someone will try and take a stab at the pot (at least this is the case in my games). Also when you check raise, you are creating odds for your opponents to chase. Some people may not like this because of the chance that your opponent can catch up to you but remember in the long run, you are a favorite to win (you better be a damn favorite if you're check raising).

[Randy Reed 0]

Same limits on stars, I was at the table but wasn't involved.preflop was 3bet, flop came A A k flop was 2 bet aroundturn was 7 check, bet, fold and callriver was a 7 2 guys cap it, another foldsyep, quad 7's. It happens at these low limits and cost him a fortune even leading out, so no, I would never slow play anything but the absolute nuts at these limits, invariable some idiot lucks out with his miserable cheese.

[jjmack42 0]

Do u get the same amount of FPP for playing micro-limit as u would ne other lmit?

[LeeDanger 0]

with regards to your post Randy what are the odds of that happening? I mean in most situations you will win a lot of money on a hand like that, besides the absolute nuts is only flopping a royal flush, so I guess you NEVER slow-play, which is fine if it's your philosophy but I think their are times to slow play as you will extract a lot more profits in the long run

[popeye18 0]

I have a question for you smash. Why do u think that you have not had a losing session yet in your experiment?

[NormanHaupt 0]

Read day 19

[popeye18 0]

ok thanks alot. I try to read most but missed that one.

[NormanHaupt 0]

np 19 is my favorite one to date

[TheMathProf 0]

Do u get the same amount of FPP for playing micro-limit as u would ne other lmit?

IIRC, the FPP are based on the amount of cash that is raked from the pot. So smaller limits are less likely to reach the requisite pot size to have the amount raked that would generate FPP.It looked to me like the pot has to reach $21 pre-rake or $20 post-rake, before 1 FPP is awarded. At $0.10/0.25, that's 84 BB, which is 21 player-caps (i.e. 7 players capping three different streets). That's also if I'm remembering my rake numbers correctly (at $0.05 rake/$1 pot).I gotta be honest, but I don't see that happening very often at those limits. I think I've got a better chance of seeing FPP's at the $0.01/0.02 NL tables, where you can occasionally get 5 or 6 folks to go all-in with their $5. 8)