classless "play" leads to loss of a big pot...

[telescop 0]

Unless I really liked the cardroom, I would be forced to beat the shit out of this guy. And I don't mean jump up and go after him right then, get up walk away, collect your thoughts, let him forget about what happened, maybe wait until he is working, walk up behind him and hit him as hard as you can, if your not that big/tough of a guy don't be afraid to use a weapon, dirty fighting is condoned in this situation. :twisted:

[Guest]

I went to Harvey's (S. Lake Tahoe) yesterday and after my session, I decided to talk to one of the floor supervisors and get his opinion on this. After explaining the situation, he replied with:"I woulda given the pot to the guy with KQ and fired the other guy on the spot"He also pretty much quoted me the rule that was posted above about intentionally misrepresenting your hand. I also forgot about to mention the fact that you tabled your hand, so even if you straight up mucked, this guy would've still given you the pot.The management probably knows that this guy is a trouble maker (since you mentioned the "Green Chip Story") and I would try to get him fired and if that doesn't work, post the adress and name of the pokerroom where you can on the net and tell everyone to avoid it. People don't need to go to a place with crooked dealers and bad management.

[thrillsoft 0]

What's the name of the club? I live in NY and go to a lot of the clubs around town. I'd really like to know which one did this to you!

[Staynerjohn 0]

Pretty bad call.

exactly...what did you think he had...you were the aggressor and he was calling you..even if he was bluffing at the flush, you don't have the hand to call a bet that big...what potential hand could you beat???...he could have been calling you with 2nd pair and hit 2pair with the A...just too much to think about and the pot was not big enough to warrant ' I'm curious, I have to see your cards'...that is absolute junk...who showed you that move??

[Mercury69 3]

I would Mace the c**ks**ker. That's cheap, low, dirty and scumbaggy all roled into one with bulls**t sauce. I hope he gets flesh-eating disease on his dick.

[agsa6079 0]

The bottom line is, he spanked you with a back-alley play, but while it's definitely classless, there aren't rules against it.

I'm not sure if their are rules about it or not, but the bottom line is, you're playing in an illegal card room. Why would you assume they give a crap about you or your hand? They're "in business" to make money, not host a fun, fair time. They're crooks, so why act surprised when one of their own acts crooked? Who should they protect, the occasional player who might provide them a few $100 in rakes or a dealer who knowns the ins and outs of their operation and can be responsible for causing them a great deal of grief should he have reason to speak to the cops?It sucks that you got stiffed out of the pot, but them's the breaks of backroom poker.

[diabolic 0]

Cardwarfare: I also play at fishstreet aka the river, and have played with Gary at other a previous club also on Long Island for a long time before this. I believe what he did was wrong and ive never seen him do anything like that in the past. I think the main reason why he pulled such a di ck move was because he is simply not a good cash game player, and you probably had something working for you in terms of calling on the river such as a good read on him. Im not trying to give him any credibility in any way, but I am saying his skills at the cash game table are weak, and also whenever you hear him such out in the tournaments, you hear him yell "BOOM BOOM" and its just gotten rediculous. Well, thats all I have to say.

[healeydays 0]

Good letter to send. Probably won't get you anything but an appology, but they need to clean up their employee's acts if to be a respectable operation...

Here's a copy of the email I sent the management team at Fish Street Poker. I think I worded it respectfully, and hope to hear a respectful response in return.To whom it may concern (perferably the manager / owner of Fish Street),I played a 1/2 NL session at your cardroom yesterday (Friday), and would like to bring to your attention an incident that occured at my table, but before I do so please let me preface it by saying that after playing several sessions at your establishment, I have had nothing but positive things to say about the facilities, service, staff, etc. Unfortunately, what happened yesterday afternoon has put a permenent blemish on your cardroom's reputation, in my eyes.At the conclusion of a 1/2 hand, an incident occurred with a gentleman by the name of Gary. I will provide you with the basic outline of the hand, to provide you with a bit of a landscape of how it was played.The board showed 3 clubs, with a Queen and an Ace, and 3 rags. I held K-Q, and called a large bet on the river, made by Gary. As I was moving my chips in, I flipped over my hand, exposing the K-Q. He then proceeded to say "nut flush" as he was uncapping his cards. He then showed me the 10 of clubs. At this point, I had just finished moving my chips into the pot, and, disgusted by his declaration and his already shown card, tossed my hand into the center of the table. He then revealed to me his second card; the Jack of hearts (giving him no hand, simply jack-high). I shot him a look and he replied with, "I was lying, your hand's dead. It's my pot."Now, I am aware that because of the fact that I tossed my hand into the muck, that it is killed, and therefor, I forfiet the right to the pot. That is not my issue here. My issue is that, as far as I know, Gary is an employee of yours. I had sat at a table he was dealing for two nights ago during a different session, and recognized him immediately when he sat at my table yesterday. Now, to my knowledge, there is no rule against what he did. However, it is clearly a "dirty" and unethical move, which, I assume, was fueled by the fact that he just got called on an attempted bluff. If this were another random player at the table, I would have been annoyed, but simply moved on. My problem is that he is an employee at your cardroom. In my opinion, when an employee of your's sits at a table to play, he is representing your entire business. Therefor, poor sportsmanship, poor table etiquette, or flat out trickery sheds a very unfavorable light upon your establishment. After all of my praise of your card room, often recommending friends and members of poker forums to your place, I quite honestly found this gentleman's actions to be atrocious and dishonest. If I wanted to play cards at a shady, dishonest establishment, I could go to some of the other rooms I've visited. The reason I continued to come to Fish Street is because it was one of the nicer places I've played in, with very courteous staff and great games. This experience, however, has changed my view. If this type of person is employed by Fish Street, I would feel very uncomfortable playing there knowing that this type of decietful individual is hired and chosen to represent your business. I have had no other problems with any of the dealers in the past, in fact, I generally enjoy their input and convorsation during my sessions, but this gentleman simply crossed a line in my eyes.The sole purpose of this e-mail is simply to bring this to your attention. An young asian man was dealing at the time, and I'm sure he can back up my story. I did not throw a tantrum or act out in any way, I simply gathered my belongings and left. I would like to inform you, however, that after this I will most likely be taking my business and action elsewhere, as well as suggesting that my friends / associates do the same.[/size]I'll post the response when I get it.

[healeydays 0]

I'm also curious what legal in NY. Are card rooms like this legal in the state? I thought I heard that NYC was cracking down on them?

[diabolic 0]

Are card rooms like this legal in the state?

It is in no way illegal for the players to play there. But as far as dealers, managers, and even waitresses that work there they can be charged with promoting gambling and possession of gambling paraphenelia (sp?). As for the legal sense, the criminal defense of those running the show at the card rooms is that when they collect "time" as payment for you playing they are actually charging you rent like you are renting a space out such as an apartment. It is illegal that they profit off this.

[yeffy 0]

As someone who has worked as a flooman in a NYC cardroom this was handled very poorly. If you truly did table your hand that is is all that needed to be said, your hand is live and the pot is yours. People have this magical idea about the muck, it is not some super power force field. Cards can be pulled from the muck if necessary but tabled hands speak for themselves.I had a similar situation come up at my (now defunct) club and awarded the pot to a player solely based on an angle shot from his opponent. A guy called a bet and mucked his hand (unseen) after the bettor had declared "straight". The bettorr was asked to show the hand and chuckled and showed 9 high with a missed draw. I was called to the table and the bettor said "he mucked his hand it's his own fault the pot is mine". I awarded the pot to the other player despite his cards having never been shown. This caused a huge uproar from the bettor and I simply handed him a rulebook with this rule from our book (based on Robert's Rules):2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot. (For more information on miscalling a hand see “Section 11 - Lowball,” Rule 15 and Rule 16.)We then warned the angle shooter that any additional angle shots would result in a ban from the club.Bottom line, you got shafted and the club handled things a poorly as possible.

[PotDragon 0]

you hear him yell "BOOM BOOM" and its just gotten rediculous

I grew up on Long Island and am planning a visit there soon... I'll remember this and keep an eye out for him.... :wink:

[kennyg1966 0]

take the pathetic jerk outside and take care of him !i would have lost it....and if the other players didn't back you up by finding a new table.....if he was a dealer his tips are not going to be very big anymore!!@

[KEVBO 0]

Play at his casino, but don't tip him when he's the dealer. You will come out ahead in the long run.As with anything dealing with poker - THINK LONG-TERM!! :-) - KEVBO -

[RayPowers 0]

Play at his casino, but don't tip him when he's the dealer. You will come out ahead in the long run.As with anything dealing with poker - THINK LONG-TERM!! :-) - KEVBO -

You forgot the part about telling everyone else at the table about his crap play everytime you are at his table, to try to make sure no one tips him.Ray

[foldnrun 0]

if the respectful way doesnt work, then tell management that you were in the bathroom one time and he asked if you wanted a mustache ride... and he doesnt even have a mustache.

[KEVBO 0]

You forgot the part about telling everyone else at the table about his crap play everytime you are at his table, to try to make sure no one tips him.Ray

Indeed you are correct sir!! - Could cost this guy thousands!! - KEVBO -

[CardWarfare 4]

Pretty bad call.

exactly...what did you think he had...you were the aggressor and he was calling you..even if he was bluffing at the flush, you don't have the hand to call a bet that big...what potential hand could you beat???...he could have been calling you with 2nd pair and hit 2pair with the A...just too much to think about and the pot was not big enough to warrant ' I'm curious, I have to see your cards'...that is absolute junk...who showed you that move??

Not that it has anything to do with the discussion about the move this guy pulled, but to answer your question anyway...I thought he was on a stone bluff. I saw him pull this exact play against another player and got caught. I also watched him for 4 hours of my session and watched how he played hands such as middle/bottom pair and flush draws. What i said to him before I called was just BS, I knew I had him. Call it what you will, I knew I had the best hand. Against anyone else at the table, or someone I hadn't been sitting with for the past few hours, I fold, but with him I knew what play he was making, and I called. I'd suggest reading the entire post in which I explained my reasoning for calling in this spot before you start with the "Learn from the Pros" tips.

[CardWarfare 4]

I decided to check up on this thread and read the new posts, after which I planned on sending Fish Street a second email, since I had never recieved a response, and to quote the rules stated in some of the posts. I was happy to see I had 2 new messages from them, and, as promised, here's what they said., I was away for the weekend and just getting to my e-mails now. I am sorry for the delayed response. I am going to make a few calls right now and inform the guys of what happened and find out how they want to proceed. I am sure we can try and make things right. Thank you for your understanding and I will e-mail you shortly. Thanks! --PAnd the second..., I got the story. We talked with Gary about Friday night. After he apologized to us for doing such a despicable act, we did put him on final warning and he will only be dealing at our club one day a week now. We truly are sorry anyone associated with the club would do such a thing. We never even thought that would ever happen...but now we are going to bring up this incident with all our dealers and managers letting them know it will never be allowed at our club or they will be asked to never return. Gary did tell us he would like to apologize to you in person if you would be so kind as to put this incident past us and please don't allow it to blemish your perception of the club in general. As a token of good faith and saying "we're sorry, please come back,!" Fish Street would like to put you up in one our tournaments we have. Please let us know which days and /or you like to play so we can work something out. Again, we're really sorry this happened and hopefully you won't hold this one terrible play against us. --PSo, all's well that ends well I guess. They have some juicy tournaments, and it looks as if I get my pick as to which one I'd like to enter. I don't usually play many of their tournaments, as the cash games are a much more profitable investment of my small bankroll, but I'll gladly accept a freebie!Thanks for all the advice/support/funny ideas of how to get this guy back. I'm going to go down there, talk to "boom boom" and hear out his apology, then take my free stake in the tournament.Thanks again FCPers. NH

[bm99 0]

I havent yet posted in this thread but I would like to congratulate the OP for the way he handled this situation. You seem like a very mature person and I do think you are right in this situation. Good job with the email and I hope you take down the tourney you enter!

[Vidgames 0]

So, all's well that ends well I guess. They have some juicy tournaments, and it looks as if I get my pick as to which one I'd like to enter. I don't usually play many of their tournaments, as the cash games are a much more profitable investment of my small bankroll, but I'll gladly accept a freebie!Thanks for all the advice/support/funny ideas of how to get this guy back. I'm going to go down there, talk to "boom boom" and hear out his apology, then take my free stake in the tournament.Thanks again FCPers. NH

Congrats on the positive result. It sounds like the best possible outcome--and better if you do well in your personal freeroll. (hehe)And as a postscript of my own, my comment that I didn't think it was against the rules has obviously been shown to be incorrect. Outside of the flaming that surely comes with any message boards, I still manage to learn enough to make visiting worthwhile. Thanks to all that contribute their knowledge. A E

[diabolic 0]

Cardwarfare: play the 330 freezeout tomarrow (tuesday) night, its probably your best bet since most of the other tourneys are rebuys, and you will have to dig into your own pocket to rebuy or add on.

[PotDragon 0]

Glad to here it turn out well for you. I guess I should take this as a lesson and keep my damn mouth shut more !! Well done. :clap: :dance:

[PimpRock 0]

Class.I think that is the only word to describe how you have handled the entire situation OP. An all too rare commodity around here.Congrats.