classless "play" leads to loss of a big pot...

[Spademan 94]

I would jam his games with friends during his shifts just to stiff him.

Ya, I was going to say sit at his table and stiff him, but filling the table with friends is even better. Stiff him the entire night, night after night.

[MrB 0]

Your letter/e-mail to the club is quite good, but here are a few constructive critiques.The letter/e-mail has to be addressed to a specific person or persons in authority if at all possible. Otherwise, there is a good chance that it doesn't get read or read by the wrong person, who doesn't take action. The person has to have the authority to make decisions...potentially in your favor.When writing a letter of complaint, always include some questions in your text such as "Do you think this action was fair?" and "Does your cardroom normally tolerate such behavior?". This does a couple of things for you. First, questions encourage a response from the recipient. You have assigned them a direct action (answer my question) that is more difficult to ignore. Secondly, notice that both examples utilize what is known as the "you effect". By asking the person how he feels about the situation, you are psychologically putting him in your position and inducing empathy.Secondly, tactfully ask for something to resolve your dispute and don't be afraid to shoot for the moon. Something along the lines of "Do you believe as I do that I was cheated by your employee to the sum of $200?". Again, you've both asked a question and somewhat subtly posed a solution...give this man $200 for being cheated by our employee.Finally, never ever directly threaten retaliatory actions on your initial submission. A subtle hint is borderline acceptable. What you want is for the situation to be resolved in your favor some way. You do not know what steps an organization may or may not take to pacify you. They may suspend or fire this guy. They might dock his pay or even refund your action from their profits as a means of damage control if they're convinced that you have been wronged. They may do nothing. The point is that you give them the opportunity to make things right on their terms first. Stating that you're going to tell all your friends and post critical comments on message boards is an initial mistake that only encourages resistance against you. The time for retaliation is only after they've said no to you...perhaps repeatedly. Then as a last resort, you can write a final letter/email stating your disappointment in the entire situation and that you feel that you have no choice but to warn ALL poker players locally and on the net about this situation. Then you should honestly decide whether or not you ever want to play there again.And for all the posters, who have suggested sitting at this guys table and stiffing him, etc., what makes you think that this angle shooting low life isn't capable of being a mechanic and setting the deck up for a hand pitting you against an accomplice for all your chips? I'm willing to bet that most of you aren't able to spot a dealing card cheat. You would be amazed at what someone with the "magic touch" can do with a deck of cards...especially in poorly supervised, inexperienced cardrooms.

[CardWarfare 4]

Good point about the mechanic bit Mr. B. I had considered the same thing, which is why I chose to simply go over his head with the whole issue.Aside from that, taking action directly against the dealer, such as not tipping him or trash talking, would mar my credibility, thus negatively influencing the management's decision.I wasn't planning on tipping the guy anymore regardless, simply because in the prior session, I tipped him a $1 chip after a hand, and later realized after the dealers changed that he had swapped it out for a $25 chip.I realized this after counting up my chips at the end of my session, remembering that I had exactly 6 green $25 chips, and now only had 5. There was also a randomly placed green chip in the dealer's tray where the tips are held. HMMMMMM......Needless to say this guy is scum, which is why I chose to go straight to the management.

[pokerplayer24 0]

Good point about the mechanic bit Mr. B. I had considered the same thing, which is why I chose to simply go over his head with the whole issue.Aside from that, taking action directly against the dealer, such as not tipping him or trash talking, would mar my credibility, thus negatively influencing the management's decision.I wasn't planning on tipping the guy anymore regardless, simply because in the prior session, I tipped him a $1 chip after a hand, and later realized after the dealers changed that he had swapped it out for a $25 chip.I realized this after counting up my chips at the end of my session, remembering that I had exactly 6 green $25 chips, and now only had 5. There was also a randomly placed green chip in the dealer's tray where the tips are held. HMMMMMM......Needless to say this guy is scum, which is why I chose to go straight to the management.

Really hope you brought this up to management when it happened.....

[CardWarfare 4]

Good point about the mechanic bit Mr. B. I had considered the same thing, which is why I chose to simply go over his head with the whole issue.Aside from that, taking action directly against the dealer, such as not tipping him or trash talking, would mar my credibility, thus negatively influencing the management's decision.I wasn't planning on tipping the guy anymore regardless, simply because in the prior session, I tipped him a $1 chip after a hand, and later realized after the dealers changed that he had swapped it out for a $25 chip.I realized this after counting up my chips at the end of my session, remembering that I had exactly 6 green $25 chips, and now only had 5. There was also a randomly placed green chip in the dealer's tray where the tips are held. HMMMMMM......Needless to say this guy is scum, which is why I chose to go straight to the management.

Really hope you brought this up to management when it happened.....

Don't worry, I did and got the $25 chip back.

[blakheart 3]

I know in Reno a tabled hand speaks. Many years ago when I was new to the game I misread my hand at the river. My opponent made a flush, and I thought I had trips. But the board had paired and I really had a boat. I said 3 of a kind as I tabled my cards. He showed the flush. I then tossed my cards into the muck. Someone else said, wait he had a full house. The place went a little crazy. The floorman came over and pushed me the pot. I was actually quiet the whole time not knowing the rules. Everywhere I play, you should have been pushed the pot. I think the combination of this being an illegal card room and him working there you should have gotten taken care of. I would have made a bigger stink if it was me.

[TheLadiezMan 0]

I would just threaten them with "Well sir I dont really want to but if I have to I'll give my local IRS office a call or the nice NYPD precenta call." If that doesn't scare them, well, I would say nothing is going to happen.

[Aces Up 0]

I honestly would have called some of my friends up waited for him to leave and beat the hell out of him and take everything he had on him And I am a nice guy 8) who knows what someone crazy would do

[vonteego3 0]

I would just threaten them with "Well sir I dont really want to but if I have to I'll give my local IRS office a call or the nice NYPD precenta call." If that doesn't scare them, well, I would say nothing is going to happen.

sounds like this could be a pretty profitable place... I don't think he wants to give up ever playing there again over a $200 pot.When you sat down to type that, did you really think "hey, here's a good idea!"? I hope not.

[TheLadiezMan 0]

I would just threaten them with "Well sir I dont really want to but if I have to I'll give my local IRS office a call or the nice NYPD precenta call."  If that doesn't scare them, well, I would say nothing is going to happen.

sounds like this could be a pretty profitable place... I don't think he wants to give up ever playing there again over a $200 pot.When you sat down to type that, did you really think "hey, here's a good idea!"? I hope not.

Im glad you took me seriously.

[finztotheleft 0]

I debate it with the dealer,as well as the floor manager/casher at the cage. They sided with the guy, saying if I mucked my hand it can't be debated. I also had a nice oversized Louisville Slugger that I use for batting cage sessions, but unfortunately didn't know what kind of car the guy drove

Nah, I wouldn't risk getting myself in that kind of trouble (well, unless you can do it without getting caught), but my angle on it would be the fact that the guy works there. Make a big stink with the manager and maybe even get loud (not foul, but make sure that other customers hear what you're saying), arguing that if this is the kind of employees he hires, who'll pull scummy moves like this, you aren't going to bring your money there again. If the manager is smart (and you can nudge him harder with something like, "I'll make sure all my friends and anyone who plays poker that I know...and I'll post it on all the Internet message boards..."), he'll realize that the risks of knowingly letting this happen to a paying customer (and that it'll end up costing him in other customers and reputation) outweighs the "legality" of the play he made on you.The bottom line is, he spanked you with a back-alley play, but while it's definitely classless, there aren't rules against it. In fact, I believe I read that someone did that in a major tourney a few years ago with the same results. You mucked your hand, though, so he wins no matter what he holds or how he got to that point. The only power you have at that point is raising a ruckus and threatening to take your (and others') business away for not much gain on their end.The *other* bottom line is, you're smarter now, and you won't let some jerk play you again. Oh, and you can also pat yourself on the back for your read--you made the right play after watching him carefully for a while and picking up on his methods. You lost the hand for all the wrong reasons. A E

Go to that cardroom often, sit at that dealer's table, tell every player there this story. You can cost this guy more than $200 in tips.

[gar 0]

What did the other players do while this hand was unfolding,they should have pressured the angler, the dealer and the floor manager into awarding you the pot. You were the unfortunate victim this time, but it could have been anybody else sitting at the table, so it's in their own interest to stop this kind of crap.As for revenge, I wouldn't tip the angler or the dealer who pushed the pot to the angler.

[Simpleton 0]

That guy deserves a big time beat down rounders style.

[Black99 0]

I just spent the week playing at the Commerce Casino in LA. I saw this rule put into place twice. In one example, the player tabled his cards without saying anything, (he had a full house). Another playing tables his cards saying flush. The dealer then put the FH in the muck.The remaining players immediately said "full house -- full house".The houseman was called and ruled that because the hand was tabled it is the winning hand.I do understand that this is a bit different because the dealer mucked the cards, but the rule is clear that once a player tables his winning hand, it is the winner unless a better hand is shown.I am shocked to hear that the player in the OP was allowed to get away with this.I have seen players given warnings by housemen after what was claimed to be inadvertent incorrect verbal declarations. There is absolutely no place in poker for trying to get your opponent to muck after action is concluded by telling him you have a hand that you do not have. This is no different than a player throwing his cards onto another players cards intentionally so that players cards are automatically dead. This pot should have gone to the winning hand (since the hand was tabled) and the A hole should have been given a very stern warning by the house.my 2 cents.Black99

[sloshr 0]

Your hand should have been live, regardless, once you turned them up. Check any rule book. The fact that he miscalled his hand deliberately makes it even more so. I would have argued with the supervisor there until he checked the rules and gave me the money I earned, of kicked me out. If I got kicked out, I would do what someone else suggested and called the police, thelling them the location of an illegal card room that cheats their customers. That should end the problem.

[Socrates 0]

It seemed like you were trying to give your money away anyway so I guess it didn't matter in the end. With that said, the guy and what he did was a joke.

[jayboogie 0]

It should have been cards speak, especially at an underground card club where keeping your clientele is extremely important. I've seen similar situations and the winning hand is usually ruled the winner. I'm real surprised the management there didn't overrule and the players at the table didn't say anything. I'd be pretty certain that they didn't understand the situation exactly as it happened, because if they did they would have sided with you. If they get looked at as running a shady club, it'd be real bad for their business and having their reputation ruined for something like this would not be worth it on their part.There was this one time I was in a hand with AQ and hit trips on the flop and a flush on the river. After several bets on the latter streets, I flipped over my hand and my opponent mucked his hand, another player asked to see his hand and he flipped over a fullhouse and they rewarded him the pot. Now, I could have made a big deal out of it and complained and what not, but the way I saw it was that he had the winning hand and he called the bets and just made a mistake of misreading his hand. I could have been a jerk about it and I had a reasonable gripe as well, but that's just not the way I am. Of course if the other players kept their mouth shut, I'd have won the hand, but hey what can you do about it. That's my problem with people asking to see other's hands, causing situations like this. Now my whole point to this is I wish more people would have respect for the game. It's people like this that give poker a bad reputation to the general public. Things like this should just never happen, but anytime theres money at stake and gambling around, you'll have your share of shady people. It's important to always protect yourself in situations like this to make sure you don't get screwed over.

[CardWarfare 4]

That's pretty much how I feel, which is why I complained, and wrote the letter.Unfortunately, still no response

[navybuttons 15]

It should have been cards speak, especially at an underground card club where keeping your clientele is extremely important. I've seen similar situations and the winning hand is usually ruled the winner. I'm real surprised the management there didn't overrule and the players at the table didn't say anything. I'd be pretty certain that they didn't understand the situation exactly as it happened, because if they did they would have sided with you. If they get looked at as running a shady club, it'd be real bad for their business and having their reputation ruined for something like this would not be worth it on their part.There was this one time I was in a hand with AQ and hit trips on the flop and a flush on the river. After several bets on the latter streets, I flipped over my hand and my opponent mucked his hand, another player asked to see his hand and he flipped over a fullhouse and they rewarded him the pot. Now, I could have made a big deal out of it and complained and what not, but the way I saw it was that he had the winning hand and he called the bets and just made a mistake of misreading his hand. I could have been a jerk about it and I had a reasonable gripe as well, but that's just not the way I am. Of course if the other players kept their mouth shut, I'd have won the hand, but hey what can you do about it. That's my problem with people asking to see other's hands, causing situations like this. Now my whole point to this is I wish more people would have respect for the game. It's people like this that give poker a bad reputation to the general public. Things like this should just never happen, but anytime theres money at stake and gambling around, you'll have your share of shady people. It's important to always protect yourself in situations like this to make sure you don't get screwed over.

the dealer should have touched the cards to the muck. (usually, they tap them twice on the muck). this means that a hand is dead. the dealer can then turn it over, but the hand is dead. no cardroom in the world should award the opponent the pot if the dealer touched the cards to the muck.if the dealer didn't, well... then you have a real complaint with the dealer.there is no way i'm not having them look at the cameras on that hand.

[jayboogie 0]

It should have been cards speak, especially at an underground card club where keeping your clientele is extremely important. I've seen similar situations and the winning hand is usually ruled the winner. I'm real surprised the management there didn't overrule and the players at the table didn't say anything. I'd be pretty certain that they didn't understand the situation exactly as it happened, because if they did they would have sided with you. If they get looked at as running a shady club, it'd be real bad for their business and having their reputation ruined for something like this would not be worth it on their part.There was this one time I was in a hand with AQ and hit trips on the flop and a flush on the river. After several bets on the latter streets, I flipped over my hand and my opponent mucked his hand, another player asked to see his hand and he flipped over a fullhouse and they rewarded him the pot. Now, I could have made a big deal out of it and complained and what not, but the way I saw it was that he had the winning hand and he called the bets and just made a mistake of misreading his hand. I could have been a jerk about it and I had a reasonable gripe as well, but that's just not the way I am. Of course if the other players kept their mouth shut, I'd have won the hand, but hey what can you do about it. That's my problem with people asking to see other's hands, causing situations like this. Now my whole point to this is I wish more people would have respect for the game. It's people like this that give poker a bad reputation to the general public. Things like this should just never happen, but anytime theres money at stake and gambling around, you'll have your share of shady people. It's important to always protect yourself in situations like this to make sure you don't get screwed over.

the dealer should have touched the cards to the muck. (usually, they tap them twice on the muck). this means that a hand is dead. the dealer can then turn it over, but the hand is dead. no cardroom in the world should award the opponent the pot if the dealer touched the cards to the muck.if the dealer didn't, well... then you have a real complaint with the dealer.there is no way i'm not having them look at the cameras on that hand.

Sorry I actually should have been more clear about what I meant by going in the muck. The player in the hand made the motion to fold his hand and push it towards the dealer before another player not in the hand said he wanted to see the hand. The player in the hand then turned over his hand to show a fullhouse and they rewarded him the pot. So, the dealer didn't actually touch the cards in the muck to pronounce the hand dead. Of course it was kind of annoying to lose a hand that way, but I decided to just take it in stride and move on to the next hand.

[navybuttons 15]

nothing you can do about that then.i would never have been to happy to have some a-hole ask to see my hand.

[Guest]

Ok my only question is what kinds scumy casino would keep that jerk in there employ?

[Kangaroo 0]

the guys probably stoked it worked and next time he does it to the guy carrying a gun he wont be so happy.

[tryptout 0]

I think that the tabled rule should apply here. I also think that the misrepresentation clause in the rule book edges in your favor regradless:(from card player rules link) 2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot. (For more information on miscalling a hand see “Section 11 - Lowball,” Rule 15 and Rule 16.)I'm thinking that the dealer in your game might possibly have actually been working against you to some degree, in favor of his fellow dealer. The whole situation is one good reason that any establishment should not let its own dealers play in the room. I'm also thinking that, need for business notwithstanding, this is one of the perils of playing in an unliscensed, unregulated venue. That said, I like your approach overall. You know that you could have made a bigger fuss at the time. But you chose to play it cool. You don't seem the type to smash windows or slash tires. You've brought it to the management's attention. You and your friends certainly won't ever tip the scumbag, and in fact will do anything you can to reduce his tips.If he's keeping tips, this hurts him directly. If he's sharing tips, go ahead and tell other dealers why you don't tip that guy, why he's costing them $. In the end, word will get around and he'll be pegged for the scum that he is. Thing is, you made your decision right then not to protest the award of the pot. So, live with it and don't ever lower yourself to any scum tactics in dealing with this guy.

[kouta43 0]

just dont flip over your cards first if you dont have too.I have no idea why people do it, it is just bad.