classless "play" leads to loss of a big pot...

[GoStags92 0]

Well, all I can say is good on ya for keeping your composure. I have no problem getting caught on the river or having players suck out on me, but that crap is personal. I would have been very vocal and would make sure to come back when he was dealing and talk shit.I feel sorry for the guy that he would have to make a move like that. Plus, you should mention it to your tablemates and discourage them from toking him while he deals.

[CardWarfare 4]

Here's a copy of the email I sent the management team at Fish Street Poker. I think I worded it respectfully, and hope to hear a respectful response in return.To whom it may concern (perferably the manager / owner of Fish Street),I played a 1/2 NL session at your cardroom yesterday (Friday), and would like to bring to your attention an incident that occured at my table, but before I do so please let me preface it by saying that after playing several sessions at your establishment, I have had nothing but positive things to say about the facilities, service, staff, etc. Unfortunately, what happened yesterday afternoon has put a permenent blemish on your cardroom's reputation, in my eyes.At the conclusion of a 1/2 hand, an incident occurred with a gentleman by the name of Gary. I will provide you with the basic outline of the hand, to provide you with a bit of a landscape of how it was played.The board showed 3 clubs, with a Queen and an Ace, and 3 rags. I held K-Q, and called a large bet on the river, made by Gary. As I was moving my chips in, I flipped over my hand, exposing the K-Q. He then proceeded to say "nut flush" as he was uncapping his cards. He then showed me the 10 of clubs. At this point, I had just finished moving my chips into the pot, and, disgusted by his declaration and his already shown card, tossed my hand into the center of the table. He then revealed to me his second card; the Jack of hearts (giving him no hand, simply jack-high). I shot him a look and he replied with, "I was lying, your hand's dead. It's my pot."Now, I am aware that because of the fact that I tossed my hand into the muck, that it is killed, and therefor, I forfiet the right to the pot. That is not my issue here. My issue is that, as far as I know, Gary is an employee of yours. I had sat at a table he was dealing for two nights ago during a different session, and recognized him immediately when he sat at my table yesterday. Now, to my knowledge, there is no rule against what he did. However, it is clearly a "dirty" and unethical move, which, I assume, was fueled by the fact that he just got called on an attempted bluff. If this were another random player at the table, I would have been annoyed, but simply moved on. My problem is that he is an employee at your cardroom. In my opinion, when an employee of your's sits at a table to play, he is representing your entire business. Therefor, poor sportsmanship, poor table etiquette, or flat out trickery sheds a very unfavorable light upon your establishment. After all of my praise of your card room, often recommending friends and members of poker forums to your place, I quite honestly found this gentleman's actions to be atrocious and dishonest. If I wanted to play cards at a shady, dishonest establishment, I could go to some of the other rooms I've visited. The reason I continued to come to Fish Street is because it was one of the nicer places I've played in, with very courteous staff and great games. This experience, however, has changed my view. If this type of person is employed by Fish Street, I would feel very uncomfortable playing there knowing that this type of decietful individual is hired and chosen to represent your business. I have had no other problems with any of the dealers in the past, in fact, I generally enjoy their input and convorsation during my sessions, but this gentleman simply crossed a line in my eyes.The sole purpose of this e-mail is simply to bring this to your attention. An young asian man was dealing at the time, and I'm sure he can back up my story. I did not throw a tantrum or act out in any way, I simply gathered my belongings and left. I would like to inform you, however, that after this I will most likely be taking my business and action elsewhere, as well as suggesting that my friends / associates do the same.[/size]I'll post the response when I get it.

[MrJones 0]

Part of me says this guy is an ******* and you deserve the pot part of me says, well, he did what he had to win it, and you didn't know the rules, always see both of their cards first. If someone says they have something say: Show it to me. Don't just muck. I agree it was really mean of him to do it but you have to know the rules in the casino, or card room, harsh luck man.

[SpeedKills 0]

I would have jumped over the table and pulled off one of those stints like in Tilt.

[realdeal515 0]

With a pot of 200 u shoulda been a bit more aware of what was going on.You made a few costly mistakes at the end of this hand1. u flipped youre hand over first after calling a bet2. when he flipped over only one card and said flush u shoulda been more aware of what was going onTheres no way i woulda let this one slide tho, if the managers didn't do anything about i woulda made a dam stink up in there and let everyone know how they do in that place.4 new tires = roughly 200 dollarsreveng = priceless

[Pokerghost2 0]

i wouldve let him know right then that he has an asskicking coming his way. hope the 200$ or whatever was worth it cuz he would have 250$ worth of asskicking coming his way.

[Scott3705 0]

Question: you exposed your hand, so did you flip your cards to the center face up or face down. i was under the impression that made a difference.

[Herr Baader 0]

Part of me says this guy is an censored and you deserve the pot part of me says, well, he did what he had to win it, and you didn't know the rules, always see both of their cards first. If someone says they have something say: Show it to me. Don't just muck. I agree it was really mean of him to do it but you have to know the rules in the casino, or card room, harsh luck man.

Did you even read the guy's post/letter? It's not about whether he "deserves" the pot or not, it's about this fu ckwad "Boom Boom" being an employee and representing this establishment. The management should fire his ass immediately, but he's probably the son-in-law of the proprietor or some shit and nothing will happen. If he's still there next time you go, the only other viable recourse I could see (outside of some serious psychological gaslighting, which could be fun but would be a full-time job and hardly worth the effort) would be to make sure as many of the customers of that place as possible hear this story. Give them a legitimate reason not to tip the dealer and I'm sure they'll oblige. . .BTW, to the OP: great letter, very well stated. If it doesn't get the job done, nothing will.

[offset 0]

I remember reading about a similar situation in daniel's blog. He bluffed with a straight on the board and a beginner player called. As a desperation act, when he turned over his cards he emphatically said "Straight!" and the other guy mucked his hand.Honestly, I don't believe the op's opponent was unethical, but i would not do it because I like to portray a friendly image so that beginners are "nicer" to me in pots. It's all a matter of perspective. If the op had made this play and posted it some would say it was unethical, but others would give him a pat on the back for winning the pot in a creative way.

[Stealth Beagle 0]

You should go back and play at his table when he's dealing and never tip him, ever. His move is a classless angle-shoot any way you slice it, but as someone who deals there, it's unforgivable.

[keith crime 8]

I don't get it at the end of the hand you showed a pair of queens - everywhere I play he has to show a better hand to win the potyou didn't just muck your hand you revealed it to the dealerwhy wasn't that good enough?

[Longshanks 0]

burn that motha down

[PotDragon 0]

In a casino your argument should win. By flipping your cards face up..you had tabled them. Once a winning hand has been tabled it cannot be mucked. Trouble is that the poker boom has created many new job openings in the Poker rooms around ,yet the pool of qualified people is not expanding at the same rate. So, for instance, a casino like Harrah's Reno has a women who runs the floor during days who only dealt poker 6 months in her life. Her rulings are a jopke. My point being...even though the rule governing TABLED hands should have applied here...there is no telling how it would be interperated in any given casino on any given shift. Sad but true.If you are ever faced with a similar situation ( and you will be ) please do yourself a favor and use the term Tabled....not "flipped up" or "exposed"...it may help focus the Floorman on the correct decision.As this happened in a place with no Gaming Commision oversight...who knows what rules the "Floorman" is using. Are they posted ?Dude...if someone pulled that BS with me I would not have taken it as well. Ruining your life over $200 is not worth it at this point, but I would be exclaiming in a loud voice how the dude is an angling shooting POS at every table he sat with me at....forever. I would jam his games with friends during his shifts just to stiff him. I would tell every customer of his how he has no respect for the game.In short, I would become such a thorn in his side that he would get a sick feeling in the pit of his stomach when he saw me come through the door...Or he would take a swing!

[Scott3705 0]

I don't get it at the end of the hand you showed a pair of queens - everywhere I play he has to show a better hand to win the potyou didn't just muck your hand you revealed it to the dealerwhy wasn't that good enough?

If you turn it back over and throw it in, it's a muck.

[Scott3705 0]

In a casino your argument should win. By flipping your cards face up..you had tabled them. Once a winning hand has been tabled it cannot be mucked.

I see that you live in Reno, so maybe the rules are different. I live in New Jersey and you can muck after you have exposed your cards. It happened in front of me once on a 400 dollar pot.

[PotDragon 0]

In a casino your argument should win. By flipping your cards face up..you had tabled them. Once a winning hand has been tabled it cannot be mucked.

I see that you live in Reno, so maybe the rules are different. I live in New Jersey and you can muck after you have exposed your cards. It happened in front of me once on a 400 dollar pot.

Yeap...and sometimes the wrong team is awarded the ball when it goes out of bounds too. In a live game...a tabled winning hand cannot be ruled dead. Not saying it don't happen every single day in rooms in every state.

[PotDragon 0]

2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of false information given to the player.

Knowing the rules is always a good idea. :wink:http://cardplayer.com/rules-of-poker/general-rules.php

[PotDragon 0]

More fun rules...

2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot. (For more information on miscalling a hand see “Section 11 - Lowball,” Rule 15 and Rule 16.)

[dead money 1]

Potdragon is right. I play in AC and I have seen this happen a few times. I also have a friend who is a dealer at the showboat(he dealt the final table of the WSOP Cicuit event). I have seen the ruling on this go both ways. It all depends on the floorperson you get. But the rule is once the winning hand is tabled, then it cant be mucked. Unfortunatley for you, the people at the club you play at are not all familiar with the rules or they set there own rules. This rule was set up just for this reason. Cards speak and that is all there is to it. Thats tough luck. I would have argued till I was blue in the face, whether I got the pot or not. To be honest, I wouldnt have stopped until they threw me out.

[HurricaneKyle 0]

Wow, I'm sorry about that man. What a dick move that guy pulled on you! If that happenned to me, some friends and I would have a meeting out in the parking lot later on.

[dreamcaster 0]

Is this place even legal? Two words - Police Raid!

[Steppin Razor 0]

Play when he's dealing, and when you sit down say, 'hey, I remember you. You cheated me out of a pot shooting angles.' Use your outdoor voice. Then don't tip. Maybe some other players won't tip him either.

[thehidden 0]

I just wanted to see what some of you guys thought of this situation...I was playing 1/2 NL at a new cardroom that opened up a few months ago in my area. I was sitting on the button with K Q . After a late position limper, I raised it up to $15 (as was a standard pre-flop raise at this game). An aggressive older "hotshot" called out of the BB and the limper folded. The flop came down Q -4 -7 . The BB player checked, and I led out for $25. BB calls.Turn brings the 2 . BB player checked, and I made a "feeler" bet of $30. BB calls.At this point, I was fairly sure I had the best hand. I had been watching a lot of hands this guy had played (because he seemed to play them all!) and had never seen him slow play any sort of big hand. Top-pair/good-kicker combos, two pairs & sets, flushes/straights etc.The river brings the A , and the BB leads out and bets $170, or enough to basically put me all-in. I sat back for a minute and thought about the play of the hand. It didn't make sense that he would have called me down with a low pair or a naked ace. He didn't play the possible flush as he had when he had it, and to me it just seemed like a flat out steal. After thinking for a minute, I called, and here's where the issue at hand occurs.Before I called, I said, "Well, you got me curious, I'm gonna pay to see it." I flipped my K-Q, and immediately after I put my chips in, he un-caps his cards, saying "nut flush" and flipping over the 10 . Hearing this, before he turned over his second card, I flipped my hand toward the middle of the table. After that, he turns over his other card, showing the J and says, " I was lying, but your hand is dead. My pot."Now, I do realize that I made a mistake in throwing my cards in before I saw both of his. I'm just wondering if there is any sort of rule in how he showed his hand, deliberately showing the club first and declaring the wrong hand, as well as the fact that I did originally show my hand. This place isn't a casino, just a little cardroom in NY. Obviously, this guy pulled a filthy move in desperation, realizing I made the correct call, and trying anything he could think of to steal the pot, but I just think that, even if there is no rule against it, it's just a classless move, especially because he deals at the same room. I feel like he sets a bad example of table ediquette, and makes a negative statement about the room in general, by pulling stunts like that, and then laughing and bragging about it for about 15 minutes afterward. Let me know what you guys think

Your cardroom doesn't have an angling rules? If not suggest it to the manager. U said towards the middle of the table, did they hit the muck? because that's the only thing that woulda killed ur hand once u reveal it. I really hope you kicked the crap out of this guy

[Lpyle04 0]

Most casinos will overlook the "mucked hand" rule if you show the winning hand and it's obvious you had the winning hand and it shouldn't be mucked, i would say that's just a bad call by the floor. I know most dealers will just call the hand dead but normally if you call floor and tell them what happened they will take care of it

[mr_english 0]

So here is what you do,Go back and play when the SOB is dealing,Everytime you win a pot, take the tip you would normally give and put it back in your stack saying something like "$2, $198 to go until I get back what you stole"Then make a point of letting the whole table know what kinda dumbass he is and maybe they also will stip tipping.At my local card room we had one of the regular table dealers join us at the poker table one night, she was having fun and giving the dealer crap, she got warned once, and was a little worse for drink.When she came to work the next day they pulled her aside and told her she was getting a 3 day suspension for her behaviour the previous night.