loosey goosey or tight whitey?

[CobaltBlue 662]

So I've been playing full ring Seven Stud (high) at .50/1, and I'm wondering about good "saw 4th street" percentages. I don't have nearly a big enough sample, but I'm currently at 29%. Is this a reasonable number?As for my fold percentages, they're: 71%, 11%, 6%, 1%, 1%

[CobaltBlue 662]

Holy frig...I am getting run over at 7-Stud tonight. I've read the Stud section in Reese that says to play your big pairs fast. So every time I get TT or better, I play the hand very aggressively until I run into resistance. There are some other hands (three-suited, big cards, and smaller pairs) that I'll limp in with.Anyway, I'm getting the hell stomped out of me on the river. I'll be showing four big cards, with a big pair in the hole (or a split pair), and I'll get called down by 44...which hits trips or two pair on the river. Should I stop playing so aggressively without bigger hands in super loose games? I bet when I know that I'm ahead, but I guess my position is tenuous with just a pair.

[KowboyKoop 0]

Holy frig...I am getting run over at 7-Stud tonight. I've read the Stud section in Reese that says to play your big pairs fast. So every time I get TT or better, I play the hand very aggressively until I run into resistance. There are some other hands (three-suited, big cards, and smaller pairs) that I'll limp in with.Anyway, I'm getting the hell stomped out of me on the river. I'll be showing four big cards, with a big pair in the hole (or a split pair), and I'll get called down by 44...which hits trips or two pair on the river. Should I stop playing so aggressively without bigger hands in super loose games? I bet when I know that I'm ahead, but I guess my position is tenuous with just a pair.

DO NOT use Reese's section as a guide to such low limit play....that is more designed for upper limits where you are usually in heads up or 3 way pots....overplaying big pairs in4-5 way pots..which often occur at those limits, is a BIG mistake. Not saying you should fold them...but be a little cautios....Big drawing hands play VERY VERY well in these games, if you have, for example, a pair of Aces and three diamonds on 4th street, or four to an Ace flush on 4th street in a 4-5 way pot, you should be jamming very hard most of the time. Can't do that with a concealed pair of Jacks in a 4-5 way pot. Basically, you just have to get some experience and learn from that...the biggest thing to consider is pot odds, as "chasing" is often correct on the later streets in big, multiway pots.

[ahosang 0]

TT is a tiny hand in stud as KowboyKoop says. Stud and stud 8/b are two games where the type of game(players, ante structure etc) will greatly determine how you approach any given hand.I would avoid high ante structures like the Party low-limit games. If you play games with low antes, then concentrate on big pairs and big str8/flush cards.

[KowboyKoop 0]

TT is a tiny hand in stud as KowboyKoop says. Stud and stud 8/b are two games where the type of game(players, ante structure etc) will greatly determine how you approach any given hand.I would avoid high ante structures like the Party low-limit games. If you play games with low antes, then concentrate on big pairs and big str8/flush cards.

Just for clarification, a SPLIT pair of tens in a multiway pot is not a hand to play too aggressively...you usually need a good draw to go with it if you want to play it all the way. A CONCEALED pair of tens in a multiway pot is sometimes worth chasing that third ten. However, if you can get the pot heads up or three way, you can play tens more aggressively if you are pretty sure you have the biggest pair. Again, DO NOT use Super System or even any Sklansky readings for low limit stud....

[ahosang 0]

That's a very good point too. Concealed pairs gain so much from deception compared to split pairs. Some tight players(maybe myself) will muck if a player pairs his doorcard. When your pair is concealed and you gain the third, your opponent has no clue.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Any recommended reading for this level of Stud? And, it seems like I'm often getting the pot down to 2-3 players after fourth street, but they won't fold until showdown.

[Eastwood Jr. 0]

Any recommended reading for this level of Stud? And, it seems like I'm often getting the pot down to 2-3 players after fourth street, but they won't fold until showdown.

Honestly if you have some patience and a little skill it seems to me that beating higher limit games is almost easier in stud. For the most situations there is usually a clear cut correct play and by making that play you can gain extra bets and save bets as well. However in low limits you just need to decide on fifth street if your hand/draw is worth it or not and then play it through to the river or fold at that time.Secondly, in all games don't fall in love with AKx, 3 flushes, 3 straights etc. Even hands like AKJ are worthless if you haven't improved by fifth street. Many times even at limits as high as 30-60 I will see players calling on fifth with no pair and not even a gutshot draw. Don't fall victim to this strategic blunder. Paired starting hands are sterling in stud. Concealed pairs are gold and big concealed pairs are platinum. Be patient in waiting for these hands and then making your opponents pay when you have them. Always get the extra bets in when you are leading in the hand. Don't be afraid to get outdrawn. If it happens it happens but missing bets is an error on your part and getting outdrawn is bad luck.In higher limit games play on sixth street and on the river figures much more into the equation. In other words you can actually bluff on the later streets and win pots! I think Cowboykoop had a point about Chip Reeses chapter in Super System one but once you move up a smidgen then that is truly the holy grail on stud high. Read that chapter two or three times. Just follow his advice most of the time, watch the players, analyze and win.

[CobaltBlue 662]

I often don't play AKx unless x is a decent card, and I muck it if I don't improve on 4th. Three flushes, I don't play them unless I don't see many of my suit out, and if I don't catch a four flush or improve to a big pair on 4th, I muck. I don't play three straights unless most of my key cards haven't been shown...and only then when the pot's multiway. If I don't improve to an OESD or big pair, I muck on 4th.So basically, I'm playing fairly tight on 3rd and quite tight on 4th with "drawing" hands. Should I try to hang on until 5th with some of these hands?

[oceansize 0]

I've read that chapter. Reese is also talking about playing 20/40 (considered medium limit). Your gonna find a lot of river chasers at micro-limits, even in limits up through 4/8 at a loose enough table. Reason being, most people playing Stud love seeing all the cards (same principles in low limit micro limit Hold 'Em, mostly new people to the game) and if they lose 20 bucks spending an hour seeing all the cards, they don't sweat it. More bang for the buck kind of mind set.I would also suggest that you just stick to the long term win philosophy and stick to those choice starting hands. Starting pairs, trips of course, 3 str8's and 3 flushes. Keep in mind that most suggest low 3 flushes in Hi only (such as 3 5 8 ) is a playable hand in the micro limits but you wanna play it like you would small starting pairs. Also I would play all starting pairs 10 or smaller as a small starting pair. Concealed or not.

[KowboyKoop 0]

I often don't play AKx unless x is a decent card, and I muck it if I don't improve on 4th. Three flushes, I don't play them unless I don't see many of my suit out, and if I don't catch a four flush or improve to a big pair on 4th, I muck. I don't play three straights unless most of my key cards haven't been shown...and only then when the pot's multiway. If I don't improve to an OESD or big pair, I muck on 4th.So basically, I'm playing fairly tight on 3rd and quite tight on 4th with "drawing" hands. Should I try to hang on until 5th with some of these hands?

I would suggest that if there are four or more players in the pot (including you) and you start with a three flush and on fourth street you catch a blank..IF there are only two or less of your suit out...I would recommend usually seeing 5th street just b/c of the pot size and your draw is pretty live. If you catch a 4th suited card on 5th street, you will have pretty good odds to chase that flush. Do this unless an opponent pairs a door card or you think you might be up against a higher flush draw. Like I said earlier, in low limit stud with a lot of 4-6 way pots...it is often correct to chase a little more than you probably think. Even gutshot straight draws with three suited cards on 4th street are good in a 5 way pot, for example.

[richgambler 0]

DO NOT use Reese's section as a guide to such low limit play....that is more designed for upper limits where you are usually in heads up or 3 way pots....overplaying big pairs in4-5 way pots..which often occur at those limits, is a BIG mistake. Not saying you should fold them...but be a little cautios....Big drawing hands play VERY VERY well in these games, if you have, for example, a pair of Aces and three diamonds on 4th street, or four to an Ace flush on 4th street in a 4-5 way pot, you should be jamming very hard most of the time. Can't do that with a concealed pair of Jacks in a 4-5 way pot. Basically, you just have to get some experience and learn from that...the biggest thing to consider is pot odds, as "chasing" is often correct on the later streets in big, multiway pots.

Well said, Kowboy.....this is spot on advice 8)

[CobaltBlue 662]

If I suspect that someone has a four-flush after four cards, should I even be betting a pair since they're a favorite to make their hand by the river?

[Eastwood Jr. 0]

I often don't play AKx unless x is a decent card, and I muck it if I don't improve on 4th. Three flushes, I don't play them unless I don't see many of my suit out, and if I don't catch a four flush or improve to a big pair on 4th, I muck. I don't play three straights unless most of my key cards haven't been shown...and only then when the pot's multiway. If I don't improve to an OESD or big pair, I muck on 4th.So basically, I'm playing fairly tight on 3rd and quite tight on 4th with "drawing" hands. Should I try to hang on until 5th with some of these hands?

I think when you're reading well and you think your opponent might be bluffing then a little looser play on 4th street can win you extra pots. For example if some one is high and representing split kings and you have three to a flush as well as a low pair or something like that you can sometimes take a card for one small bet as long as you think there is a reasonable chance your man is bluffing. That way if he checks to you on fifth street you can take the lead and often win the pot and if he bets you can fold unless you improved signifigantly. Sometimes I might even make this play on sixth street if I've noticed that my man is liable to follow the rule of "never giving a free card on fifth street." Keep in mind that in order to set a play like this up and have it work you must establish a pattern of playing good starting hands and making good decisions on fifth street. However, for the most part I think your style is correct of playing by general TAG principles. Stud is a limit game and while bluffing is always part of any good strategy I play best in stud when I am very rocky.

[Eastwood Jr. 0]

If I suspect that someone has a four-flush after four cards, should I even be betting a pair since they're a favorite to make their hand by the river?

If the pair is bigger than they're upcard you should almost always continue leading. Remember your read is only right maybe 1 out of 2 or so. Many times you think they're on the draw but really they're just protecting a smaller pair or three to a straight. If they get apparent help on fifth then you might continue but if you're raised then don't be afraid to lay it down. It's a strong play that not many will make to reraise the draw on fifth street. Remember staying TAG in stud is usually a good philosophy but TAG doesen't just mean playing tight it means being aggressive as well. If you win extra bets when many players would just check it down then it makes the sting of the river suckout agianst you less painful.