donk play??

[SLEEPYCHIEF 0]

.50/100 Internet 9 handed NLHStack sizesme 275Villan 100Villan UTG+1 raises to 3, I call with KJ off, SB callsEveryone else folds flops is K 3 6 Rainbow. Pot is 10.00Villan leads out of 6. I know all the trappings of this hand, so I don't need a lecture about that, I decide right then to call, but not to much. SB foldsPot is 24.00Turn is K, still RB. Villan checks, I decided if he has AK or KQ, i don't want to lose to much so I chceck.River is 9. Villan checks. At that point I decide i have the best hand and value bet 12, he calls with QQ. He then rants and raves on how badly my preflop call was, and I told him u should worry about your river call!I don't feel calling a normal raise with KJ in position is a donk play as long as you don't over play it after the flop. OPINIONS???

[NoSup4U 0]

i think most people will tell you its not ideal play as a base strategy. Obviously who is raising and how you're playing the table matter.But as a standard play I'm in the squeeky clean camp that wouldn't make this call pf.Consider this: The hand as it played out is about the only way you can make money here. And you couldn't make much, because even though you were ahead, you couldn't play the hand strongly. And unfortunately, the times when you're ahead are far outnumbered then when you are behind. So I don't think this winning scenario will come close to balancing out the losing scenarios where you call down AK, or just fold on the flop when you don't hit. To me its a hand where you can win a little, or lose a medium amount.Mark

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

For the love of Christ.You are making everyone in this forum dumber when you post results.Obviously calling with KJo isn't that bad when he has QQ, can't let it go, and you can spike a K or two.And yet you were still 70/30 behind preflop, and the board bailed you out.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Sorry.I try to be one of the nicer strat posters, because some people don't post in strat because they're afraid of getting flamed by more senior posters.But please stop posting the results of the hand.The only advice you'll get are results-based circular agreements, or flames telling you how dumb you are.

[SLEEPYCHIEF 0]

Sorry.I try to be one of the nicer strat posters, because some people don't post in strat because they're afraid of getting flamed by more senior posters.But please stop posting the results of the hand.The only advice you'll get are results-based circular agreements, or flames telling you how dumb you are.

I post there for I am? I think freedom of posting is guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. Really I wasn't looking for a strategic answer cuz I'm a great post flop player and am very comfortable calling preflop raises with marginal hands in POSITION! Cuz I believe I can avoid overplaying hands when they hit. Ur an AZz Tj, let me know where you play online, cuz I would to add to the bankroll!

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

-sigh-I have all kinds of witty and caustic remarks floating about in my head, and the only thing holding me back is that this website means more to me than it does to you.I've said whatever strategy I can say in this thread, and I'm done with it. You can have the last word.

[macphec 0]

i know you know but I dont care how good of a post flop player you are, it's not good busines to call pf raises w KJo.And dont post results, seriously.Could you seriously tell me you would get away from this hand if you're up against AK?

[Scott3705 0]

i know you know but I dont care how good of a post flop player you are, it's not good busines to call pf raises w KJo.And dont post results, seriously.Could you seriously tell me you would get away from this hand if you're up against AK?

I think he would say that he would lose the least possible. Even though raising the flop IMO would keep you from losing the most here against AK.I'm iffy with the call preflop with position. You have to have a big edge preflop to make up for how much you're behind here. villain is UTG+1 therefore, (given no reads) his range is AA - 1010 AK AQ. You're not ahead of any of these hands, so what you're really looking to do is make other payers fold better hands often enough to compensate. AKA you would want to bet an Ace king of queen flop to try to run out hands like jj 10 10 and ace high. I don't think you get the types of flops you're looking for enough to make this a real good play.

[macphec 0]

the problem with hands like these is that you don't win much $$ with them even when you hit the flop well. But you can sure lose alot when you hit.you probably wuldnt have gotten paid off in this hand if you didnt hit your second King

[Jordan 1]

calling a raise with KJo isn't cause you are a good postflop player.You don't call raises with that hand to outplay someone postflop. You call raises with 78s, T9s, etc, type hands to outplay them postflop.Too often will you actually hit a "good" flop like Jxx just to be outkicked by someone, or up against a higher pair.You may be a good postflop player, but don't justify being a good post flop player cause you can call a 3x the bb raise with KJo.Of course, you can take anyone off a hand in position if the Villian check/fold a flop unimproved, but at that point your cards don't matter. It's your oponent and how he reads you. Playing KJo and trying to pick up a pot postflop is alot harder than playing 98s to a raise and trying to pick up a pot on the flop cuz with KJo, you wont have many good draws, thus you won't be able to semi-bluff. With 98s type hands, hopefully you'll have that draw to be able to bet comfortablly when you think villian has a hand like AK, AQ, KQ, and went UI on the flop and can't call your bet. Or if he does call, mistakenly you hit, or you fire another bet on the turn, depending...- Jordan

[benhoug 0]

I don't feel calling a normal raise with KJ in position is a donk play  

I call raises in position w/ a range of hands hoping to hit a big flop and bust someone. KJ off is not usually one of them though. I'll call a raise w/ 7 8 or 5 6 , but I almost never call raises w/ hands like KJ or KQ, AJ, A10 or QJ - cause you can really trap yourself w/ these hands.

[JacKingOff_suit 0]

Watching you guys talk about NL is like watching quadrapalegics fuck.

[Scott3705 0]

Watching you guys talk about NL is like watching quadrapalegics fuck.

Yeah, there's a brillian NL mind if i ever saw one.

[AceyDucey 0]

I'll call a raise w/ 7 8 or 5 6 , but I almost never call raises w/ hands like KJ or KQ, AJ, A10 or QJ

Those hands (KJ KQ AJ A10 QJ) if it was limped to you, or folded aroudn to you...would you open a raise with them? I often wonder what the correct play here would be...its definately a decent hand in certain situations, but do you want to raise and isolate yourself against a better hand?i wonder.

[macphec 0]

I'll call a raise w/ 7 8 or 5 6 , but I almost never call raises w/ hands like KJ or KQ, AJ, A10 or QJ

Those hands (KJ KQ AJ A10 QJ) if it was limped to you, or folded aroudn to you...would you open a raise with them? I often wonder what the correct play here would be...its definately a decent hand in certain situations, but do you want to raise and isolate yourself against a better hand?i wonder.

No, I fold most of these hands unless there are extenuating circumstances at teh table. I usually limp w KQ, AJ if there are limpers in front.

[Scott3705 0]

Those hands (KJ KQ AJ A10 QJ) if it was limped to you, or folded aroudn to you...would you open a raise with them? I often wonder what the correct play here would be...its definately a decent hand in certain situations, but do you want to raise and isolate yourself against a better hand?i wonder.

Yes, I raise with them in LP. I'll get loose preflop calls from the blinds which will often fold to a continuation bet if they don't hit a hand. Or i'll just steal the blinds. JQ I likely limp with if there are limpers in front and KJ i may fold if there are too many people limping in front.

[AceyDucey 0]

No, I fold most of these hands unless there are extenuating circumstances at teh table. I usually limp w KQ, AJ if there are limpers in front.

hrmm...Now im no pro...i like to think of myself as above average..but i don't play this way, it makes sense that i probably loose way more than usuall pushing these hands in this spot. Its wierd when you wake up one day and something makes sense. Last trip to vegas (about a year ago) i thought i was on top of my game....its amazing how much ive learned from then to now. I did ok then too...playing 4/8 and winning a mtt at sams town...i went home up about 3000.I wonder if my refined understanding will improve me or take a dip till i adjust.

[krup24 0]

At that point I decide i have the best hand and value bet 12, he calls with QQ. He then rants and raves on how badly my preflop call was, and I told him u should worry about your river call!

River Call is not that bad

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Watching you guys talk about NL is like watching quadrapalegics fuck.

Yeah, there's a brillian NL mind if i ever saw one.

For all his shortcomings smash IS a brilliant limit mind, and he's very knowledgeable about poker.And to a great extent he's right.

[fckthis 0]

I didnt even get past "called KJ, from a utg raise".Thats your problem. You called with crap. Your option to a raise in front of you, especially EP, is raise/fold.

[flash420 0]

All im going to say, is do what you have to do to win the most money from the most people as possible. Sometimes you have to get lucky. Most of the time you have to create this luck, or you're just going to get pushed around the whole time. whatever your read is on the situation, well you have to just go with that.

[themilkmanishere 0]

Just take a swig of whatever drink ur drinking, reraise all in preflop, and put on ur best poker face. Textbook play according to Sklanksy in "Theory of Poker", since you have added equity with the possibility he might fold. Plus, your cards are both face cards, which can't be bad.(sw, just in case)

[Davin 0]

to op:the posters on this site are notoriously tight, calling a small pf raise w/ kjo in position isn't bad poker as long as you can get away from it on the turn or river if you're not super strong strong (ie just top pair)as to the actual play of the hand, bet that turn after it gets checked to you, you should be celebrating in your head, not worrying about the case king

[Jordan 1]

to op:the posters on this site are notoriously tight, calling a small pf raise w/ kjo in position isn't bad poker as long as you can get away from it on the turn or river if you're not super strong strong (ie just top pair)as to the actual play of the hand, bet that turn after it gets checked to you, you should be celebrating in your head, not worrying about the case king

Good generalization.The only problem I had with this hand is that he is justifying his play cause he made trips. Had he not hit trips and won this hand, this post would never have been made.Tight or not, how he defended his play does not work here.Sorry davin. And I'm not really defending other posters who you may thing play too tight. I really couldn't care less. But this guy obviously made a post based on results, and we told him otherwise. I don't think anyone was telling him to play any tighter. If so, that shouldn't be our goal.- Jordan

[flash420 0]

Lets be honest here! Nothing really matters until the flop, and then, well take it from there. The only thing that you may be able to criticize is the fact that he didn't put him on a hand first. So whatever. Ive seen KJ and KQ kick AK's ass so many times because of stupid flops and AK lost a shitload of money. At least with KJ and KQ you can get out of the hand if you dont hit. People have this dream with AK, but its just as vulnerable as any other hand. In fact its probably the most vulnerable hand because most people just cant lay it down.