folding in low limit holdem w/ top pair

[WaffleMcHat 0]

this question may seem odd but are you ever supposed to fold top pair w/ strong kicker in limit?online I never do it unless 4 of a suite hits or a 1 card straight is on the board but I am beginning to question that.for example, at a 4/8 limit table irl where you are against many loose passive opponents that only bet when they have 2 pair or better, if you have top pair strong kicker on the river and bet it for value and all the sudden someone raises you, should I just fold? I have yet to be wrong on my predictions about whether or not im beat but the pot is so huge it seems silly to fold.another example is when I have an overpair and all the sudden an ace drops on the river and someone bets. obviously I should call because he could be bluffing but I have yet to see anyone bluff out of about 50x it has happened.I mean if im against loose passive players that NEVER seem to bluff and are very very bad and not tricky, should I just save myself money in the long run and start folding top pairs on the river when someone raises my bet?Obviously I shouldnt do this frequently so players don't catch on and actually start trying to bluff but wouldnt it be ok every now and then? It would save me some money in the long run assuming my predictions continue to be accurate and may enable me to get more money from my opponents if they try to bluff on the river and i actually call them.

[Vade 0]

1. If you only have top pair top kicker, there's always a good chance that someone with 2nd pair will make a better hand. You probably have to fold. In fact, checking on the river might not be a bad idea, depending on the texture of the board, especially with at least 3 or 4 people in the pot.2. You have to respect the ace on the river. Period, an Ace should always be a scare card.

[BetItAll33 0]

this question may seem odd but are you ever supposed to fold top pair w/ strong kicker in limit?online I never do it unless 4 of a suite hits or a 1 card straight is on the board but I am beginning to question that.for example, at a 4/8 limit table irl where you are against many loose passive opponents that only bet when they have 2 pair or better, if you have top pair strong kicker on the river and bet it for value and all the sudden someone raises you, should I just fold? I have yet to be wrong on my predictions about whether or not im beat but the pot is so huge it seems silly to fold.another example is when I have an overpair and all the sudden an ace drops on the river and someone bets. obviously I should call because he could be bluffing but I have yet to see anyone bluff out of about 50x it has happened.I mean if im against loose passive players that NEVER seem to bluff and are very very bad and not tricky, should I just save myself money in the long run and start folding top pairs on the river when someone raises my bet?Obviously I shouldnt do this frequently so players don't catch on and actually start trying to bluff but wouldnt it be ok every now and then? It would save me some money in the long run assuming my predictions continue to be accurate and may enable me to get more money from my opponents if they try to bluff on the river and i actually call them.

The flop and the river are two different stories. On the flop it might be OK to fold TPGK to a very scary board and lots of action. For instance, let's say:You hold: AKthe board is: 10 10 KWith a raiser and multiple callers, or just a good read, you might lay this one down.On the river, it is rarely correct to fold for just one more bet. Consider the pot size, 10 bets, for instance. If you think there's a 10% of you winning, then you should call 1 more bet.Remember that folding when you should call can lose big pots. Calling when you should fold on the river, only loses 1 bet.

[WaffleMcHat 0]

i mean on the river in this post sorry if i made it confusing to get thati guess on the turn also part of the time

[CoolHandLaw 0]

I would think that folding on the River really depends on the size of the pot. Pot Odds good? Go for it. Pot odds bad? why waste your time.If the flush or straight comes on the river, it might be wise just to check it rather than having to call a raise.

[sloshr 0]

It depends on how sure you are that you are beat. If the pot is laying you 20-1, you have to win 1 out of 20 to make the call profitable. If, as you say, they had you beat 50 out of 50 times, you should fold. Some people never bluff. Example, I had KJs in the SB in a 2/4 online game and limped. Flop was JTT. I bet and was called by 2 guys. I bet a blank turn, got raised and mucked instantly. He clearly had the 10, and I was not getting odds to catch my 2-outer. If you know you are beat, you should fold. However, don't be wrong when you do; that would be a big mistake.

[Matt Miner 0]

i'd rarely fold tptk for one bet on the river in limit hold 'em. you should rarely fold any hand (other than a busted draw) on the river for one bet. i'd probably fold tptk for two bets on fifth street if the river card completes a draw.

[Matt Miner 0]

i'd strongly consider folding tptk on fourth street for two or more bets, especially if the turn card pairs the board or completes a draw.

[Smasharoo 0]

Depends on the pair, the board, the betting pattern and how big the pot is.As a general rule it's not a good idea to fold TPTK in a large pot unless the board is so bad that it's almost impossible you're not beat (a 4 card straight or flush etc.).Making 6 calls when you know you're beat and winning a 20BB pot one of those times is fantastic.

[Matt Miner 0]

Making 6 calls when you know you're beat and winning a 20BB pot one of those times is fantastic.true. won two of those yesterday, one with bottom pair (made the bottom pair on the river, was looking for an open ended straight draw but called one bet anyway) and another with an unimproved AQ (flopped JT for a gutshot w/ two overs so had to play it through). feels just as good as flopping the nuts.

[SabaAba 0]

Never fold TPTK on the river, if you are first to bet all the rounds, go ahead and check the river. Sometimes a non "value bet" has more value. If they miss their draw, they might bluff as it's the only way they can win and then you don't have to call any raise. They are also going to fold if you do bet and they don't have it. So just check and call one bet.

[MrConceit 0]

Yeah, I'm with Smash on this one. But there are times when you know (or should know) you're beat. That'll be my next attempt at improving my game. I basically almost always pay off with TPTK unless it's really obvious I'm beat in a certain way.Especially say on a turn checkraise is where I'm imagining I have leaks. Example: I have AKo, raise from early, say 1 late coldcaller and both blinds call. Flop is A82 rainbow. Turn is a 9. I had bet out flop, and all but sb folds. On the turn he checkraises me. Now if you don't know your opponent, this does tend to mean your tptk isn't good. He could have AQ AJ and doesn't believe you, but still. Basically at this stage I never lay down the hand there, really ever. I call, and call his river bet.I'm still not utterly sure what I think about it.Draw-heavy boards are different because people semi-bluff draws constantly in the games I play.So for a viewpoint on this issue (that I don't fully agree with, compared to the style of play normally seen on 15/30 on party), check out:http://tinyurl.com/6x6b6It's from the second to latest cardplayer about calling raises in such situations.

[Ebonwoulfe 0]

The general way to act on the river is check all marginal hands, that way you open the possibility of someone bluffing. Bet either very strong or very weak hands, as you want callers with the strong hands and folders to the weak hands. You don't want to seek callers with medium-value hands, especially since when you bet you open the possibilty of having to put in 2 bets to go to showdown instead of just one.Of course, the definition of marginal varies. Sometimes, if you're in a really great game where someone will call you down with A high, then what is originally a marginal hand such as second pair is a betting hand. At such a table any bluff should be abandoned.If you're in a game where players only raise on the river with two pair or better but never bluff and will call with anything, it is right to bet. Of course, if you changed that last sentence to "will only call with two pair or better", it once again becomes incorrect to bet, since you will only get played with if you are beat, so you want to see the river as cheaply as possible.