something to think about for you micro limit players

[telescop 0]

Playing better players is great. I mean why would i want A5 calling down on a Kxx board when i have kq.

Are you trying to say that people at higher levels are better players? Because you'd be way off base.Sure you'd want A5 calling down on a Kxx board when you have kq... it's the fact that he could and will most likely (for whatever godly reason) hit his ace and have you pay him off.I'm not saying it doesn't happen at higher levels. I'm just saying that people seem to actually care about losing the money.

I am not ready to comment on anything else here, but the FACT is that he will beat you about 15% of the time, if you don't want a guy calling you when you have a 85% chance of beating him, when DO you want a caller? Just wondering......

[Dr_Shakes 0]

Please pick up Small Stakes Hold Em by David Slansky, Ed Miller, and Mason Malmuth.Here is a direct quote from the chapter Where does the money come from:"Every cent of your long term profit playing poker comes from exploiting your opponents' errors and predictable tendencies. The more numerous and egregious their errors, the more money you can make. Some small stakes players who struggle to beat their game think they could do better if they moved to a higher limit. If only I played in a game where people respected my raises, I could be a big winner. This notion, appealing to many harried players, is absurd."Money comes from exploiting mistakes. There is always more potential for profit in games where your opponents make frequent errors. You are absolutley wrong to think that you can make more money at higher limits. You have no fundamental concept of the theory of poker. This is common for young kids who have seen poker on TV, think it looks easy, and are part of the poker wave that begain at the 2003 WSOP. If you cannot beat a lower limit where the players are generally worse, you will simply be unable to beat a higher limit where the players are generally better. You may be on a winning streak, but you will lose in the long run.

Shhhhhhhhhh!!

[nosoul 0]

This comes down to table selection. If you can find a table where you can run over the other players, it will still be profitable. Anytime your opponent folds, the odds of them drawing out on you is exactly 0%. If the table is folding too much, that's also a mistake and the OP is exploiting that mistake.So, you can have a 70% chance to win a big pot, or 100% chance to win a small one. The small ones do add up and could show a net profit over time. It just depends on what you're comfortable with. If the OP ever gets on a table where he can't run them over, his results will be quite different.His inability to win at the micro limits just shows a lack of understanding of pot odds. Low limit games are about pot odds and raising for value. Bluffing is a huge mistake because you'll rarely move everybody off their hand. Someone will call you down. You'll have to show a hand. It's that simple.

[Steppin Razor 0]

Obviously what the OP is looking for is more predictable players, and winning for a couple of weeks doesn't mean jack. So far he's been lucky enough to come across tight tables where he can run his opponents over with aggression. One or two LA players, and that could change.Still, it certainly is tempting to be able to wipe out a 40BB swing at 1/2 by picking up the blinds a couple of times.

[Jelly-Filled Ace 1]

It's not about hatin', it's about the terrible bankroll advise given on this thread.

[Cheppa 0]

The day I lose $1k at the $10/$20 is the day I quit playing poker. Which fortunately for me, doesn't seem to be any time soon.

That day will come. Doesn't matter how good you are. You will get a run of cards one day, one week, one month, or three months that will shake your confidence. Every poker player, who is serious about poker, has asked himself or herself,"What?!!! Do the poker gods HATE ME?!!! Did I disrespect them?!!I went one period not hitting a flush draw, openeded straight draw, and my favorite, the double gutter, over 120 times combined. All with the correct calling or pushing odds. Best part about that is over that period of weeks, I still managed to show a small profit of $1008. But I did have days wehre I lost $1000Losing $1000 at 10/20 is not impossible. Remember that.For your information, I have given up playing online Limit poker. I can't win at it. I won when I first started playing, won big. Then i managed to bleed it all back. Plus more.I will play 10/20, 15/30, 20/40, and even 40/80 (that one make my blood run) and will be profitable in brick and mortar room. Getting a feeling and watching people is the big part of my game. I am not a great mathematician but have a good grasp on the odds.My game of choice is 2/4 or 5/10 no limit. I play 2/4 mostly because this is the game that is most played where I live. With 512 hours of play in at 2/4 NL, on Friday, Saturday, Sunday and the occasional weekday. I average $46/hour at the 2/4 tables. Hourly rates change with other games of course. I have logged a lot of hours playing this game.2005 summary: Online -ev is $15000. Brick and Mortar +ev is $47000So trust me when I say this, “Don’t get to far ahead of yourself.”

[SplashMaster 0]

No need to be such a prick.Maybe you're just bitter because you can't do the same? I really don't know. I just made $800 today. I made $300 the day before. I made $1200 the day before that. Even if I do indeed have a losing session, I'd still be up.I'm not "retarded". I've been a winning player since August of last year. I can say that with total honesty. I've cashed out dozens of times throughout the year and I'm currently typing this on the $2100 computer I bought with poker winnings.So don't sit here and tell me I don't know what I'm doing. Thanks.

your original post was silly, thats all

[jrme33 0]

You know what I can't understand??????? When someone makes a post, and the rest of the forum raises hell calling him a donkey. If this man is in fact a donkey......DON'T TELL HIM!!!!! get to his table as quickly as possible if you have the bankroll to do so. I see it here over and over and over. If you are a real player, stop responding to all the shitty posts. Do not make them aware of their flaws cause it might lose us all money. This is a poker forum, or at least it is supposed to be.

[digitalmonkey 929]

KonidiasHave you ever read any books on Limit.Or is this jsut natural instinct and experience talking?you obviously have an excellent grasp on the essence of making money in LmitI'm grinding it out at 2/4 now.  Took me awhile to get the Bankroll, just playing .5/1 and 1/2.  Boy, I tell you.  My AA got ran down so many times, I almost thought about folding preflop."No respect for raises."That's what it boils down to.You say I just need a bankroll of $1000 to play $10/20?  That's only 50 Big Bets.  Ok, sounds reasonable if the games play as predictably as you say.  I tell you what, I'd rather win 4 outta 5 pots than 2 outta 5 with AA.  (size of pot not withstanding).  I cash out number of pots won, not actual dollars, so its all good.anyway, I like your ideas.Come to the strategy forum and post some hands.Not that you need any help.Makes you wonder why anyone plays $2/4?smash's nose may be twitching......

The fact that I didn't need to see the obviously intended SW after this post has made me feel a lot better about me game.

[digitalmonkey 929]

Please pick up Small Stakes Hold Em by David Slansky, Ed Miller, and Mason Malmuth.Here is a direct quote from the chapter Where does the money come from:"Every cent of your long term profit playing poker comes from exploiting your opponents' errors and predictable tendencies.  The more numerous and egregious their errors, the more money you can make.  Some small stakes players who struggle to beat their game think they could do better if they moved to a higher limit.  If only I played in a game where people respected my raises, I could be a big winner.  This notion, appealing to many harried players, is absurd."

Nice quote, but seriously, what do Sklansky. Miller and Mallmuth know about poker strategy?pffft :wink:

[Napa_Don 688]

Since nobody else has said it...Be sure to post when you go broke.

[llou 0]

As a micro limit player with less that 1 year of experience, I have enjoyed this thread.Like the OP, I discovered as soon as I started playing that I got better results at tight tables than loose ones. However, I responed to that observation in a way exactly opposite the OP. I re-read the books that I had bought and tried to figure out what it was about those loose tables that caused me to be unsuccessful.I figured out that I get sloppy with MY play as I play at those loose tables. It's harder for me to stick with my gameplan in the midst of wild, crazy, unpredictable behavior. So I continue to work on my discipline and I'm sticking to my original plan of focusing on the fundamentals and not progressing to a higher level until I have logged in at least 10k hands at a lower one with a winning result and a suitable BR. Gradually, I am improving my game and my winnings are increasing -- even at those loose tables I used to avoid.I'll never be a pro .... but I have a nice little hobby that includes more winnings than losses. Over time, I will see how far I can get.llou

[owise1 0]

I've never read any books on poker. I recieved a poker book for christmas but I haven't really read it yet.Yeah $1000 does seem small. I forgot to mention one thing... I play at tables with 6 people or less. Usually me and 2 to 3 others.

Whatever you are doing, if it is working and you are winning, stick with it. If you start to lose, not just over one session but in total, set yourself a loss limit and stick with it. You may for example, lose $200 a day for 10 days in a row. It happens. I would suggest 20% of your total bankroll. If you lose that, move down in limits.I suspect two or three points are being a little bit overlooked here. One, you are playing shorthanded. This is a huge difference, and it may just suit your style. Two, your table selelction. Please talk about this, how do you choose your table? You may just be getting lucky at picking tables where everyone is too tight for a shorthanded game. Three, you got to tell me what site you are playing at, please!!!I would like to see you post some hands. Take care and happy new year. owise1

[tswing 0]

Obviously this post is simply ridiculous, but I wonder what the OP would say if Negreanu replied to this post and specifically told him that his whole OP is crap, and is absolutely wrong. Would he still be telling everyone to shut up and that he is right?? Obviously Danny will not reply to this post, but I just think that would be so funny if an actual pro came in to say what everyone else is saying, what exactly would the OP say then?? haha

[telescop 0]

You know what I can't understand??????? When someone makes a post, and the rest of the forum raises hell calling him a donkey. If this man is in fact a donkey......DON'T TELL HIM!!!!! get to his table as quickly as possible if you have the bankroll to do so. I see it here over and over and over. If you are a real player, stop responding to all the censored posts. Do not make them aware of their flaws cause it might lose us all money. This is a poker forum, or at least it is supposed to be.

and the point of the forum is for us to improve our play by lurking/posting here isn't it? I wouldn't want to be a new player, come here and read this donkeys theory (with no one flaming him) and jump into a 10/20 game because at 1/2 I will usually lose w/ KQ with a flop of Kxx. All because no one told the OP he was being retarded.

[tufat23 0]

i play micro NL and theres no way in hell im jumping to NL2/4 because I want to get more respect for my raises.i agree that the OP has got really lucky, and u know what? it happens. i heard of a guy turn 3k into 30k in a month moving throught the limits. he definitely was lucky (he wasnt a fish), but if he should go broke 97% of the time, there's still the 3% when someone does earn big money. so in the same way that someone hits a 1 outer on the river its statistically correct that someone like the OP will eventually have a big run when playing out of his roll.to the OP, every pro u see had to hit a big win streak(unless they're rich from the internet or something), or more likely a big tourney win to have the roll to turn pro, so gl and ride out the rush.p.s. dont tell these guys where u play cos they're biting at the chop to take some of ure action.

[Municipal Hare 0]

It's sad to see how few of you are familiar with Dr. Assklnky's Foundational Axiom of Poker.I will try to put it in layman's terms. When opponents respect our raises, we win pots. When opponents fail to respect our raises, we lose pots.It is this basic truth which prevents any solid poker player from profiting at the micros.The OP's conclusion about moving up in limits is obviously correct, and those who object on the grounds of "bankroll management" and "experience" have no grasp of the Foundational Axiom.Once a player makes his presence known at a higher limit table by showing down one or two good hands (e.g., pocket aces, discussed in Daniel Negreanu's 2002 article "Which Starting Hands Get You Respect, And Which Are Strictly for the Kids") he will quickly find his bets and raises result in a long string of auto-folds. He can then loosen up his starting requirements and, as it were, cash in on his investment: exploiting the mutual respect which develops among solid players to take down more in "respect pots" than is paid each orbit in blind dollars. As he does so, he notices his bankroll and experience accelerating beyond his or anyone's control.So the OP is basically correct. However, moving up to limits where opponents respect your raises only accounts for one cylinder of the Axiom!We already know one way to profit off our solid counterparts: gain respect through bets and raises. But what about when our opponents bet and raise? Our first instinct will be to respect them, folding whenever we do not have proper odds to continue. This is wrong!Using the Foundational Axiom, we can profit doubly by calling to the river whenever our opponents show aggression. Sure, they may experience some "good beats" in the short run when their overpairs or flopped straights hold up against K3o. But over the long run – and this is key; too many of you focus on short term results – the "bad beats" will add up to an unprofitable experience for them as our runner-runners inevitably come in to break their winning expectations. REMEMBER: in poker, "expectation" is meaningless, and reality is paramount. In reality, good hands do not hold up against callng stations. Hold 'em is about making the best five card hand after the board is dealt.So I do hope all you conventional, by-the-book players continue to grind your way up in limits, betting only 'for value' and folding marginal hands until the blinds and bad beats eat away at your stacks. Those of us who've seen these Axiomatic principles at work in the micros (and know how to apply them) will be the richer for it!See you at 10/20!...and Beyond!

[mrdannyg 274]

I've never read any books on poker. I recieved a poker book for christmas but I haven't really read it yet.Yeah $1000 does seem small. I forgot to mention one thing... I play at tables with 6 people or less. Usually me and 2 to 3 others.

ok i will make the one non-sarcastic post.epistate - don't bother with this. come to the strategy forum, we'd love to have you there. seriously, check it out. your signature is amazing.actuary - you scared the shit out of me.konidas - where do i start?1 - no, you haven't found the holy grail of poker2 - TP/MM3 - let us know when you go broke blah blahbasically, it is a mathematical likelihood that even a fantastic player would go broke playing 10/20 at $1000. by your own admission you are not a fantastic player. you have posted thoughtfully, so i will not flame you, but suffice to say you are wrong. sorry. this is not a strategy that will work for you in the long run at that limit with your 10/20 bankroll.

   just remember - if you do not see something wrong with this, you have a problem with your poker thinking process:4 palyers, raise preflop: BOOM! $45 for me in the $30/60 game.  0 Risk, Big reward.  

danielp.s. i think i am going to stop giving strat forum responses to general forum questions.

[InertGrudge 0]

The OP is obviously lying... why feed the troll?This site sucks now even to lurk in since the poker room opened.

I think you just fed himand quit hating.It's solid advice

I love you Actuary. Honestly. Man love. Lots of it. This thread has restored my confidence in the secret ways of irony/humor

[strategy 4]

.

[gilbertology 0]

Short term variance at short-handed tables? Nah, couldn't possibly be.On a real note, Skins taking on the Eagles in half an hour to clinch a playoff birth. You'll be hearing from me after the game, hopefully when I will say HAIL TO THE REDSKINS!

[mrdannyg 274]

I've never read any books on poker. I recieved a poker book for christmas but I haven't really read it yet.Yeah $1000 does seem small. I forgot to mention one thing... I play at tables with 6 people or less. Usually me and 2 to 3 others.

ok i will make the one non-sarcastic post.epistate - don't bother with this. come to the strategy forum, we'd love to have you there. seriously, check it out. your signature is amazing.actuary - you scared the censored out of me.konidas - where do i start?1 - no, you haven't found the holy grail of poker2 - TP/MM3 - let us know when you go broke blah blahbasically, it is a mathematical likelihood that even a fantastic player would go broke playing 10/20 at $1000. by your own admission you are not a fantastic player. you have posted thoughtfully, so i will not flame you, but suffice to say you are wrong. sorry. this is not a strategy that will work for you in the long run at that limit with your 10/20 bankroll.

   just remember - if you do not see something wrong with this, you have a problem with your poker thinking process:4 palyers, raise preflop: BOOM! $45 for me in the $30/60 game.  0 Risk, Big reward.  

danielp.s. i think i am going to stop giving strat forum responses to general forum questions.

I find that I'm much better off just ignoring the general forum. I spotted this on the side of the main FCP page. If not for your response, I would have considered the few minutes I spent reading this a total waste.

:clap:

I love you Actuary.  Honestly.  Man love.  Lots of it.  This thread has restored my confidence in the secret ways of irony/humor

[HomeRow 0]

Don't get so wound up folks. Obviously a joke post. And obviously Actuary = Konidiah or w/e the OP's name is.@_@

[Guest Zach6668]

This thread is fantastic.To the OP, TP/MM.To Actuary, nh.Zach

[Abbaddabba 0]

You know what I can't understand??????? When someone makes a post, and the rest of the forum raises hell calling him a donkey. If this man is in fact a donkey......DON'T TELL HIM!!!!! get to his table as quickly as possible if you have the bankroll to do so. I see it here over and over and over. If you are a real player, stop responding to all the censored posts. Do not make them aware of their flaws cause it might lose us all money. This is a poker forum, or at least it is supposed to be.

Im guessing that the large majority of players here dont play 10/20 online. Not that it matters - it's probably a joke post.Im sure people this retarded exist at B&Ms... but i doubt they'd be able to read and write.