observing your opponents

[Rob-L 0]

I play mostly low-limit hold'em, limit hold'em that is, not so much NLHE.One problem I run into is the observation of my opponents. I'm not really sure what I should be looking for. Basically, I try to notice who is raising and from what position. I then try to remember what cards they had a show down.But, two questions I have for all of you:1) What else should I be looking for while observing my opponents? (Either B&M or on-line)2) Since I play low-limits, there is usually at least 4-6 in the pot to see the flop. This is where I get really confused.How the hell can you keep any eye on so many people at once and remember what they had on the showdown? How do you keep it all straight?Any tips or advice is appreciated,

[justblaze 0]

it will get intuitive. you will notice what people are willing to threebet with, what they'll cap with, what kinds of hands they like to checkraise with, etc. You will notice if someone threebets with TPTK. Then you can pound them with 2 pair. if they only threebet with the nuts. then you can easily get out of their way. if they raise on the come. Then you can pop them back to isolate the one draw which is behind you. If they cant resist betting on the button when its checked to them. Ill often try to isolate with as little as middle pair when the button bets out. its often a complete bluff. people who do things once tend to do them often. One of the greatest low limit B/M tells i can give you is people loading up on chips. This means that when they get a good hand or a nice flop, they cant resist picking up their chips and getting ready to bet before the action is on them. This can do several things for you. It can allow you to check the nuts, knowing it will come back to you raised. It can also allow you to checkfold a marginal hand you might have tried to semibluff with. Just make sure they arent smart enough to do this when they have nothing, in order to induce a check. I do it all the time in my 10-20 game and these morons still dont realize im a player, think theyll get cute and checkraise me, and i get a free card.

[KDawgCometh 2]

I watch for frequency, the key also is the cold callers, they are the ones you want to play with. watch how often someone is entering a pot and how hard they defend their bets. Do they just call or do they raise a lot. Always keep an eye on what hands they show down, as most low limit players will call play utter crap. hope that helps

[FromTheRail 0]

This might sound a little crazy, but its true. Watch their hands...literally their hands like left and right, not their cards. Some players love to tell you what their thinking with their hands, they grab for chips, they push their cards toward the middle, I've even seen people counting down the cards to a flush or straight with their fingers!! Also, remember the classic Caro tells concerning the hands....if they hold their cards a long time and look at them, they aren't good. If they pick up their hand and slap it back down like its hot....its a good hand. Try this next time, it will be easier than looking at everybody's expression.

[justblaze 0]

Also, remember the classic Caro tells concerning the hands....if they hold their cards a long time and look at them, they aren't good.  If they pick up their hand and slap it back down like its hot....its a good hand.  Try this next time, it will be easier than looking at everybody's expression.

using caro tells will get you clobbered. they are obsolete. PS i notice you read RGP

[Devilkin 0]

Things to look for online:1. Type of hand they pf raise, post flop raise, and call on.2. If they raise on the river, do they have the goods, or do they bluff?3. Do they call or bet on the draw?4. Do they pause before making a decision (possibly thinking or calculating odds) inferring they have either a borderline hand, or are on the draw and figuring out pot odds?At a B&M1. Do they fidget when bluffing (eyes darting, fingers moving, shuffle their legs/feet)?2. When they raise, do they overemphasise the chips in the middle, or stare at you, inferring 'acting' on their part?3. When they raise, do they do it passivly, inferring either discomfort or indecision?4. On the flop or turn, a quick small raise often infers a draw.Just some suggestions Ive picked up the last little while.Dev

[Rob-L 0]

PS i notice you read RGP

Yeah - I cross posted. I know some read FCP and don't read RGP, and vice versa, so I hit both. I figured the more opinions and insights, the better!

[Leedspokerguru 0]

Low limit cash games(aka no foldem holdem) are full of fish. If its the same people that are seeing the flop on a very regular basis then you know they're fish that will play any hand so normally they don't have apremium hand. If they're fish then play your good solid poker against them. They're easy to spot and don't require too much effort. If its someone hardly ever in a pot then give them respect for a premium hand as they've probably spent time waiting for it. NL is different as you can loose your whole stack at one false move. So you have to be more switched on. Even the fish don't see every flop because if they did they wouldn't last long(unlike the protection you have in Limit). Things to look for.How many pots there in. How often they raise. How do much do they like to bet. Are they trying to buy pots or build them? What hands they showing premium or weak hands. How they playing the premium and weak hands. Do they play strongly or weak with these premium hands?? It'll help give you a picture of the likely hands they have when your in a pot with them. Try just on person at a time, usually the most active as they are easiest to read. If you make a conscience effort to begin with after a while it becomes second nature and you do it without too much though, like a sixth sense. I for one love making good reads on someone. This is all online btwFor B&M then I have no experience other than home games. Caros Book of tells and the strong is weak theory. Very easy to read and interesting. Thats what you want. [/u][/i]

[bsabres81 0]

Caro's Book of Tells isn't obsolete. One of the posters in this thread mentioned that he sometimes picks up his chips and acts strong to induce others to check to him. Caro's Tell #45 involves players grabbing their chips to discourage a bet. At the higher levels, I agree that you won't necessarily profit from using the Book of Tells, and that some players will use them in reverse, but at 20/40 and below you will still find games where you gain much information through Caro's work.

[justblaze 0]

waste of time. concentrate on betting patterns and you'll be able to exploit way more.

[bsabres81 0]

It's not a waste of time at all. Having read it several times, the information is basically ingrained in my mind to the point where a player's action will sometimes catch my eye to exploit this. There is no real extra effort at the table concentrating on observing tells, and I am able to easily remember betting patterns as well.

[justblaze 0]

meh to each their own, i guess. many of those tells are useless at 10-20 and above, imho. the latest tell i discovered in my 20-40 game was the wrist motion as players placed checks in the pot. a 'hinged' wrist, i.e. a casual flick or toss, usually meant strong holdings, whereas a locked or stiff wrist with aggressive chip placement usually meant the bettor was not looking for a call. of course several players noticed me watching their wrists and now wear extra long sleeves to the game back to betting patterns it is.

[bsabres81 0]

Like I say, I agree that observing betting patterns is more profitable, unless you can pick up something really strong on someone. I just like to have all the information available to me. I guess we can agree to semi-agree.

[BetItAll33 0]

I would have to agree that most of the data in Caro's book is still valid for low limit games. Unfortunately tells will only get you so far in a loose low limit game. I know without any tells that 6 of the 7 people trying to outdraw me don't have $hi%, but what're you going to do about it? However I have picked up on a few very obvious tells, such as when 3 queens hit the flop, and 1 rookie immediately sighed and appeared very disinterested.....then, of course, proceeded to raise. I folded my pocket pair.Also most people will forecast their actions before it is their turn.

[Eclypse 0]

Caro's Book of Tells is not obsolete. I catch players exhibiting those tells all the time. However, most of the more reliable tells (at least for me) are not in Caro's book.

[Awful 0]

Don't get yourself overwhelmed by trying to focus on an entire table or entire low-limit hand. Dissect the actions of one opponent.Live, focus on the player making the least mistakes on his own, the toughest guy. Then as you get a good read on them, move down the ladder. This is my theory following the idea that you have to outmaneuver good players (and thus need reads) while the obvious is sufficient to kill the fish. If they're all terrible in equal amounts, well then focus on the player or 2 to your right. Tells and reads will be an aid in negating positional disadvantage and money flows around the table in a clockwise fashion, so build a dam between you and the next guy on your left.Online, do the same heirarchy and focus on one at a time, but it's easier due to the ability to take notes, keep them, and reference them whenever relevant. You don't need powers of recall when you're on your second target and suddenly in a pot with the first guy you were observing. Use a software engine that allows you to write notes on a player that follow him from game to game. Watch them for a couple orbits and categorize their preflop play, postflop play, propensity to bet on the come, etc. Make a book on them of the key values you need one at a time, add to notes as they do different things, and then move on to the next.This is a Caro principle that everyone misses; don't take on a whole table when trying to observe. Pick one, and build.

[Rob-L 0]

To all who have responded, Thank you! You have provided me with some great ideas.If anyone else has more to add, I am willing to listen!

[MrConceit 0]

*snip*2) Since I play low-limits, there is usually at least 4-6 in the pot to see the flop. This is where I get really confused.How the hell can you keep any eye on so many people at once and remember what they had on the showdown? How do you keep it all straight?Any tips or advice is appreciated,

Basically what everybody else said overall, but I did want to make one key point about your number 2.When there are 4-6 people in the hand, many of them staying to the river, tells and lots of other things become not nearly AS important. Basically at that point it's almost pure pot odds. Out of the 4-6 ONE of them isn't bluffing if there are bets and/or raises on all the streets with tons of people calling.You need to have tptk in the very least to win, quite often more (yeah I'm overgeneralizing but oh well). So basically tells go out the window, you either have the goods, or are drawing to the goods, and that's about it in a big multiway family pot.If it's 6way or more, I'd so almost rather have nut flush draw than only tptk, while that's probably a fallacy, but that's how I often feel if my tables turn that loose. I just won a monster pot having the nut open ended draw that hit on the river 6-7-way. I ended up winning a 35 or 36BB pot, like 2-3 people had 2 pair. Poor AK. The flop was 9TA, I had QJc and a bdf draw along with my open ended. River was K. AK was smoked by another 2 pair pre-river and he had like no outs to win.Btw, I feel bad about saying the nut draw thing, I'll probably get yelled at for saying such things, but I did mean it ONLY for like 6way pots or larger.

[TheIceman05 0]

If you're playing in weak games online, you might outhink yourself if you're not careful. I try to start as broadly as possible, and specify later. Games change so fast- people change tables nonstop- that it's crucial to get a very VERY general read early. So here's what I do...Step 1- Basic playing style. Loose-aggressive, tight-passive, etc. Very important, as it allows you to add or subtract hands when a player you have a solid typing on raises or limps. If he's loose-aggressive and he raises, I'm isolating with hands as weak as A-T. Sometimes worse, depending on the level of looseness.Step 2- Are they playing more than one table? If so, they're less likely to be putting a move on you. And they're less likely to pick up anything on you. Also, players who play more than one table, though they're gonna miss bets, are probably somewhat more skillful than the average player at the lower limits. Be a little more aggressive against them, though, as they're less likely to play back at you without a hand.Step 3- Specify, specify, specify. You've got a very basic, very general read on somebody. Now start categorizing what plays are in his arsenal. They've mostly been covered above, but you're looking at how he plays is draw in early or late position, whether he pays any attention to position at all, whether he slows down on the turn, etc. Start as general as possible. I tend to disagree with the people who said, "Focus on one player, get a good read, then move to another." In live games, that's ABSOLUTELY true, and in a sedentary online game, that would be true, too. But the games are so transient, you're likely to waste a lot of time and money if you don't get a broader picture sooner.Hope this helps. Ice

[TheIceman05 0]

Btw, I feel bad about saying the nut draw thing, I'll probably get yelled at for saying such things, but I did mean it ONLY for like 6way pots or larger.

I happen to agree.... if there's any significant action, I'd rather be betting and raising with the nut flush draw than with Top pair... If you're getting called or raised with your TPTK, you're probably drawing much MUCH thinner than you are with the flush draw in a pot that size. Ice