$50 to $1000 on pstars day 17

[NYIsles 0]

And Covina, I get your point about some people slowplaying big pocket pairs. But aside from the fact that it's generally a bad idea, there's also not as much incentive to do that if you've already got action on the hand...

[DiverDown4 0]

This INCREASES the probability that the BB has a dominating hand. No it doesn't.Doesn't someone having a pocket pair increase the chances of someone else having a pocket pair?

[monoatomic 0]

To clarify my original question:You are in the small blind with 8 4 suited, three players call ahead of you in various positions and it comes to you. Smash you have said you complete any SB with two suited. You complete and the BB raises the pot. The other 3 players all call, and it's back to you. What is the play here now? You have a weak hand, do you call the BB raise hoping to hit a hand or do you fold knowing there are 4 people in the pot with most likely better starting hands then what you have? That's it, nothing difficult.(also I am not talking about it being all folded to the just the SB and BB left, so don't bring that into the mix.)The more difficult question is, what happens when you hit a weak flop?Lets say again you have 8 4 suited. You complete BB raises and you call. Flop comes down 10 8 3 rainbow. What would be the correct play in this situation? I don't want to hear about hitting the best hand or the worst. If you flop 8 8 4 obviously I know what to do. If the flop comes A K 9 obviously I know what to do. It's the marginal hands that I am wondering about.

[wrto4556 0]

To clarify my original question:You are in the small blind with 8 4 suited, three players call ahead of you in various positions and it comes to you. Smash you have said you complete any SB with two suited. You complete and the BB raises the pot. The other 3 players all call, and it's back to you. What is the play here now?

You call. you're getting 8-1 pot odds...thats enough for any two suited.

The more difficult question is, what happens when you hit a weak flop?Lets say again you have 8 4 suited. You complete BB raises and you call. Flop comes down 10 8 3 rainbow. What would be the correct play in this situation? I don't want to hear about hitting the best hand or the worst. If you flop 8 8 4 obviously I know what to do. If the flop comes A K 9 obviously I know what to do. It's the marginal hands that I am wondering about.

I check/fold.

[Smasharoo 0]

You have a weak hand, do you call the BB raise hoping to hit a hand or do you fold knowing there are 4 people in the pot with most likely better starting hands then what you have? That's it, nothing difficult. Call.

[JFarrell20 1]

This INCREASES the probability that the BB has a dominating hand. No it doesn't.

Yes, it does. If it folds to you in the SB, you can assume that for the most part, less than average cards were folded. Which means what? Better than average cards are either in your hand, your opponents hand, or in the deck still. Since you have crap, it is highly more likely that the BB has a well above-average hand.Unless, like I said...UTG folded A8, UTG +1 folded A 7, UTG +2 folded K J, etc since they were early to act. Could happen, but very rare.Same reason 22 may be good when two people ahead of you push all in. Both people may have Big slick, meaning you only have to dodge 4 cards of 46 to win since they are sharing cards.

[DiverDown4 0]

jfarrel20, are you a female? or male? seriously...

[shinzilla 0]

Same reason 22 may be good when two people ahead of you push all in. Both people may have Big slick, meaning you only have to dodge 4 cards of 46 to win since they are sharing cards.Are you joking me? You'd call with 22 if two people ahead of you went all-in? Wow.

[KramitDaToad 0]

The frog is back after a night on the happy juice!I'm glad to see that the conversation continued after I left...Let's see if we can summarise what we have learnt.My original statement: Never fold to a single raise pre flop if you have already limpedI think Smash says it with more eloquence hereGet that tatooed somewhere if you have to, but seriously it's about the 3rd law of limit holdem after 1. you get dealt two cards 2. you put money in if you want to play... Next: If it's folded to you in the SB and you intend to play, don't just complete - raise. Unless you want to slowplay a huge PP as a 'changeup' limping in this situation is very weak and a good player in the BB is going to raise you without even referring to their cards. If your not willing to raise with a marginal hand - fold.Next: Heads up play that derives from a blind steal is going to be a hyper-aggresive slug-fest. Get ready to push a lot of bets in on what would normally be considered crap hands - or don't get involved in the first place. As you move up in limits it becomes more and more aggresive and is something that you need to be at least semi-proficient with.Finally: Don't drink copious amounts of German wheat beer - it really messes with your head. :colors:

[MikeThk 0]

I'm a little late to this party, and this may have been suggested on a previous day, but I think you're in for a very long haul with the rules you've got there.Not moving up until you have 300bb for the new level means you'll only do two levels - 1/2 and 0.5/1.. and most of it will be at 0.5/1. It will take forever.If I were you I'd move up when I had 300bb at the OLD level and move back down if I dropped to 200BB. There is some risk of ruin here, but it is moderate, especially at the lower limits where your earn rate should be quite high.

[Briguy 0]

I play 3/6 at the casino and I can safely say that I've never seen this happen.

I've never seen it happen at my local B&M, either (5/10). But then, I see about 150 hands/hour four-tabling online with a real mix of skill levels. I might see 20-40 an hour at the B&M, and I can only get to it once a month (because if I go out to play poker I'm being "antisocial" :roll: ), and the skill level ranges from moderate to high, with very few poor players. Until summer. My bankroll loves the summer tourists.

[JFarrell20 1]

Same reason 22 may be good when two people ahead of you push all in. Both people may have Big slick, meaning you only have to dodge 4 cards of 46 to win since they are sharing cards.Are you joking me? You'd call with 22 if two people ahead of you went all-in? Wow.

No. I wouldn't. I said it "may be good".Only a moron would call. That, I'm not.

[JFarrell20 1]

jfarrel20, are you a female? or male? seriously...

LOL. A guy. This pic is just to piss everyone off. As if I'm not doing enough of that already?

[Briguy 0]

Best bands  1)Hootie and the blowfish  2)Celine Dion  3)Mark McGrath  4)Blink 182  5)Ashlee Simpson

This should do the job nicely. Celine Dion? Seriously?

[JFarrell20 1]

OK, OK, so her second album wasn't AS GOOD as the first, I'll give ya that. But she is fabulous. And amazing.She's amazulous.Or Fabmazing.This whole thread is ric0ckulous

[DiverDown4 0]

I figured that was your angle, but cmon now.

[MrConceit 0]

If someone raises your blind...do you call every time?

No you don't. You fold J6 and 83s for the same reasons you fold T5s after you limp form the SB and the BB raises.Thank you, come again.

You really don't get it do you.JH says you do call J6 in the blind if you are raised heads upIs The Almighty going to have to come down and shake you before you learn to listen?

(The bold text refers to her talking about SHORTHANDED play, not if somebody in early or mid raises your BB on a full table and it's folded to you.)I wanted to read all this before posting, but jesus, I can't wait. You are continually harping and sometimes taking stuff out of context. She was freaking talking about SHORTHANDED PLAY. You're acting like this is a catch-all. Sure if it's a shorthanded table, 3-4 people, everything you've said utterly applies. Or if you believe it is indeed a steal attempt from CO/Button, (which it isn't always, I love when I get a premium hand in CO on a full table and the blinds defend like madmen). You're acting like if mid raises in a fullhanded table you call with any two cards in BB because you have pot odds to do so. This is a recipe for disaster.WRTO never said if you limp a legit hand you should fold to one raise, he specifically was talking about if you COMPLETE in small-blind with semi-trash and BB raises. I'm assuming you only completed because there was 1 or more limpers, that's usually the case if you didn't raise. If it's suited and like 2 limpers were in then sure call based on pot odds. But in his exact example of button limping (which is scary in itself unless you KNOW he's a fish if he was first in on button and he limped), you complete some trash, and BB raises, what do you do? This is what he said, not HU (though you turned YOUR example to HU so you could harp and quote a few things you've read about percentages of HU hands vs each other.Quite often you are getting fine odds to complete any trash in SB, but if it's raised then you really don't want to get involved for another bet necessarily. If it's suited and will be 4 or more handed you probably will call the raise, but what if it's not suited? Sometimes you don't want to waste another full small bet. I love how you are talking black and white NEVER FOLD bullsh1t. Good thing we have someone telling us the ABC do/never dos of poker.It's a relief there are exact rules we can follow for poker, it's not situational or anything. Thank god.

[MrConceit 0]

Jesus, I did finish reading, and of course the Toad is right with his argument, he changed what the original argument was. He changed it utterly to a blind battle. Duh you call one more HU vs BB. And if you have suited cards and BB raises in a family pot obviously you're taking one more off.

[wrto4556 0]

Jesus, I did finish reading, and of course the Toad is right with his argument, he changed what the original argument was.  He changed it utterly to a blind battle.  Duh you call one more HU vs BB.  And if you have suited cards and BB raises in a family pot obviously you're taking one more off.

yaaaay for people who understand.

[KramitDaToad 0]

Jesus, I did finish reading, and of course the Toad is right with his argument, he changed what the original argument was.  He changed it utterly to a blind battle.  Duh you call one more HU vs BB.  And if you have suited cards and BB raises in a family pot obviously you're taking one more off.

No you haven't read it properly.My original statement was that if you have limped you never fold to a single raise.wrto came back with a pathetic example of where you actually had to make a mistake to create a situation that he thought justified his argument. Teh fact that he is still wrong is irrelevantHere is the post that put into the blind battlewrto4556 wrote: In the small blind, you have T 5 . It's folded to you and for some dumb reason you limp instead of raise. Then, the BB raises you. Do you call? You see wrto wrote that...From there I went on to quote JH because this situation is shorthanded.With everybody folding to the blinds this is Shorthanded play If you can't see that I will explain it to you.There are 2 players playing for the blinds, the big blind and the small blind. The fact that the first 16 cards have been shown to 8 people is completely irrelevant. They are not taking part in the hand as they have folded. You have no knowledge of any of their cards. The cards that are coming on the flop are still random.It is shorthanded play.So in this case, heads up blind play, which I remind you wrto introduced, it is perfectly correct to quote text on shorthanded play.I have never said that you automatically call in the BB to any raise from a non steal positionGo back and read it again.

[KramitDaToad 0]

yaaaay for people who understand.

Yeah, their called psychiatrists

[wrto4556 0]

yaaaay for people who understand.

Yeah, their called psychiatrists

You should check one out. You obviously have issues if you can't discuss without attacking someone. That's ok, if it makes you feel better, you do what you got to do. :roll:

[wrto4556 0]

I bored with this thread.But you did say that if you are getting 3-1 preflop you should call with any two cards.

[jakoye 0]

OK, OK, so her second album wasn't AS GOOD as the first, I'll give ya that.  But she is fabulous.  And amazing.She's amazulous.Or Fabmazing.

Please be joking.

[MrConceit 0]

Jesus, I did finish reading, and of course the Toad is right with his argument, he changed what the original argument was.  He changed it utterly to a blind battle.  Duh you call one more HU vs BB.  And if you have suited cards and BB raises in a family pot obviously you're taking one more off.

No you haven't read it properly.My original statement was that if you have limped you never fold to a single raise.wrto came back with a pathetic example of where you actually had to make a mistake to create a situation that he thought justified his argument. Teh fact that he is still wrong is irrelevantHere is the post that put into the blind battle*snip*Go back and read it again.

Ok, I did. And I indeed wasn't quite fair to you, as the starter of this discussion WAS likely asking about blind-battles where he'd completed in SB after all folded to him (I assume he now knows he should typically raise here, if he's going to play at all, after all this discussion). The original guy who asked the question had like 5 questions and he didn't explicitly say it was a blind battle, but it was indeed easy to infer that if you read close.My main reason I came down on you is because of this statement:

However, regardless of how many players are in the pot if it is raised back to you, never fold to a single bet raise.

And this is totally correct if you limped any legit hand (or even semi-legit). But you complete a hell of a lot more hands than legit or semi-legit in sb, and in some cases (yes rare) it can be correct to fold to a raise, even if it's just one. Even if you think the example is contrived that WRTO gave, shrug.If you have 83s or his T5s, and mid limps, you complete, and BB raises (it isn't just a blind battle where he expects to steal HU now, mid limped), then it's not like 83s or T5s has to be an automatic call unless you know BB is a maniac or a bad player. The point is, it will be 3handed, so the pot odds aren't THAT huge for making a call, and unless you flop a flush draw/flush or a very rare two-pair/trips, you're never going to know where you're at in the hand.Maybe this seems so clear to me because I play a limit that has a 2/3 chip blind structure, 15/30. You complete ANY hand in sb if it isn't raised preflop because you're paying 1/3rd of a small bet (obviously you probably raise if it's folded to you, but I'm talking if there are limpers). And if you complete with T2o 73o or whatever, you're not obliged to call a raise if BB raises and the limpers call.Perhaps this is less likely in a more normal 1/2 structure of blinds where you won't have completed with any two.To finish any discussion on this from me, I basically just took exception with your bolded NEVER comment, because absolutes are rarely correct in poker. Even if you don't like the "contrived example" someone came up with.