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The prize pools are always proportionate to the value of the buy in and the number of entrants. Explain how having massive prize pools changing anything in terms of value?Bubble play aside, tournaments are like cash games that force you to play stakes progressively higher; much higher than you normally would. Larger fields just exaggerate that effect. Tournaments are only suited for people who get a thrill out of gambling. Without that, it's inferior for all individuals who have ... well, rational preferences. Or in other terms, a declining marginal utility of income.If you're playing for sufficiently low stakes though, the differences are marginal.
Value...as in bang for your buck.Very simple really.....If I told you that I will offer you 3 to 1 on a horse that will be 8 to 5 at the track...you would be an idiot to not bet the horse at 3 to 1 with me.The added dead money...makes it a more attractive gamble.
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Value...as in bang for your buck. Very simple really.....If I told you that I will offer you 3 to 1 on a horse that will be 8 to 5 at the track...you would be an idiot to not bet the horse at 3 to 1 with me. The added dead money...makes it a more attractive gamble.
That analogy has absolutely nothing to do with the issue, and your statement make no sense with respect to what i said....
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Value...as in bang for your buck. Very simple really.....If I told you that I will offer you 3 to 1 on a horse that will be 8 to 5 at the track...you would be an idiot to not bet the horse at 3 to 1 with me. The added dead money...makes it a more attractive gamble.
That analogy has absolutely nothing to do with the issue, and your statement make no sense with respect to what i said....
I don't feel like debating this crap now.....lets just say that I think tournaments are offering more value now than before.
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Unless you're talking about the marginal value of overlay that you can scrounge around to find in guaranteed tournaments, they're no different now than they've always been. But that's nothing new really.Because i dont care to argue it either, I'll concede that (whatever imaginary factors you're talking about) change tournaments from being vastly inferior to cash games to merely significantly inferior. :wink:

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I dont think anyone contested the fact that playing tournaments is profitable if you're better than the competition.The issue is the difference between cash games and tournaments.And cash games are preferable.
Alf's point was "Bang for your buck"10 Dollar tournament, you finish first, you make what? 800? 900? 1k average?Risk 10 to win 800? You'd have to make 80-1 over that same period of time per dollar in the cash game to make it a preferrable choice. I think that was his only point. If you take first place in a 10 dollar tournament after 6 hours, you would've had to sit at a 100NL table for 6 hours and make 8k to have them be equal, you know? Now, granted, that's not gonna be an average result, but, still, I think that's what he's alluding to. Though I may be off base.
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Alf's point was "Bang for your buck"10 Dollar tournament, you finish first, you make what? 800? 900? 1k average?Risk 10 to win 800? You'd have to make 80-1 over that same period of time per dollar in the cash game to make it a preferrable choice. I think that was his only point. If you take first place in a 10 dollar tournament after 6 hours, you would've had to sit at a 100NL table for 6 hours and make 8k to have them be equal, you know? Now, granted, that's not gonna be an average result, but, still, I think that's what he's alluding to. Though I may be off base.
Bingo....Thanks for making my point for me.....I had this same debate about 15 times on these forums....I just didn't want to have another one.
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Alf's point was "Bang for your buck"10 Dollar tournament, you finish first, you make what? 800? 900? 1k average?Risk 10 to win 800? You'd have to make 80-1 over that same period of time per dollar in the cash game to make it a preferrable choice. I think that was his only point. If you take first place in a 10 dollar tournament after 6 hours, you would've had to sit at a 100NL table for 6 hours and make 8k to have them be equal, you know? Now, granted, that's not gonna be an average result, but, still, I think that's what he's alluding to. Though I may be off base.
Bingo....Thanks for making my point for me.....I had this same debate about 15 times on these forums....I just didn't want to have another one.
That's what I do.. :club:
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Alf's point was "Bang for your buck" 10 Dollar tournament, you finish first, you make what? 800? 900? 1k average? Risk 10 to win 800? You'd have to make 80-1 over that same period of time per dollar in the cash game to make it a preferrable choice. I think that was his only point. If you take first place in a 10 dollar tournament after 6 hours, you would've had to sit at a 100NL table for 6 hours and make 8k to have them be equal, you know? Now, granted, that's not gonna be an average result, but, still, I think that's what he's alluding to. Though I may be off base.
It's a warped way of looking at it.And by warped, i mean erronious.It's the same as starting at .10/.25 cent NL and taking whatever you have to progressively higher stakes every 15 minutes. Of course there exists a possibility of doubling it up repeatedly and turning your $25 into $2,000 in a few hours time. But there's a reason why people don't voluntarily move up in stakes every 15 minutes in a cash game, and i dont think i should need to explain it.Entering in a tournament is analogous to forcing yourself to do this, albeit with a slight twist in the application of bubble play.
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Bleacher,I'm not sure if you have read this thread over yet, but I think you should. I will agree with you that some people may take things a little too far with the insults sometimes, but you posted two somewhat hostile, insulting threads before anyone insulted you.You said that people on this site should do some fact checking. Well if you had taken some time to check things out yourself, you would have realized you were running into a long standing joke. As far as everyone on this site flaming people just because they have fewer posts, I couldn't disagree with you more. I have been a member here for a while and don't have many posts, but I find almost all my posts are met with sensible replies and little flaming. However if you come in with an attitude and insult people, you will most definitely get flamed, no matter how many posts you have.
Damn it Aces! You just cost me $50. I bet my partner I could keep the flames flowing without anything resembling a rational response for at least 3 pages. Once again you guys need to stop and think before pulling the trigger. Look at my join date. I lurk on here all the time. Do you really think I don't know about the running joke relating to ZeeJustin's real name and that birth certificate that was posted. (That was good by the way).It's too easy to get a rise out you guys. 1,000 posts in strat. Doubtful. Very Doubtful. Maybe you ought to start a discussion on the proper technique for cow tipping Drawing...
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Bleacher,I'm not sure if you have read this thread over yet, but I think you should. I will agree with you that some people may take things a little too far with the insults sometimes, but you posted two somewhat hostile, insulting threads before anyone insulted you.You said that people on this site should do some fact checking. Well if you had taken some time to check things out yourself, you would have realized you were running into a long standing joke. As far as everyone on this site flaming people just because they have fewer posts, I couldn't disagree with you more. I have been a member here for a while and don't have many posts, but I find almost all my posts are met with sensible replies and little flaming. However if you come in with an attitude and insult people, you will most definitely get flamed, no matter how many posts you have.
Damn it Aces! You just cost me $50. I bet my partner I could keep the flames flowing without anything resembling a rational response for at least 3 pages. Once again you guys need to stop and think before pulling the trigger. Look at my join date. I lurk on here all the time. Do you really think I don't know about the running joke relating to ZeeJustin's real name and that birth certificate that was posted. (That was good by the way).It's too easy to get a rise out you guys. 1,000 posts in strat. Doubtful. Very Doubtful. Maybe you ought to start a discussion on the proper technique for cow tipping Drawing...
life partner?
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Bleacher,I'm not sure if you have read this thread over yet, but I think you should. I will agree with you that some people may take things a little too far with the insults sometimes, but you posted two somewhat hostile, insulting threads before anyone insulted you.You said that people on this site should do some fact checking. Well if you had taken some time to check things out yourself, you would have realized you were running into a long standing joke. As far as everyone on this site flaming people just because they have fewer posts, I couldn't disagree with you more. I have been a member here for a while and don't have many posts, but I find almost all my posts are met with sensible replies and little flaming. However if you come in with an attitude and insult people, you will most definitely get flamed, no matter how many posts you have.
Damn it Aces! You just cost me $50. I bet my partner I could keep the flames flowing without anything resembling a rational response for at least 3 pages. Once again you guys need to stop and think before pulling the trigger. Look at my join date. I lurk on here all the time. Do you really think I don't know about the running joke relating to ZeeJustin's real name and that birth certificate that was posted. (That was good by the way).It's too easy to get a rise out you guys. 1,000 posts in strat. Doubtful. Very Doubtful. Maybe you ought to start a discussion on the proper technique for cow tipping Drawing...
life partner?
Thank You! Just got my $50 back. I had to lay 5-1 but I was certain the first response would relate to that. I originally had it written as "business partner" but I couldn't pass up an opportunity.We're both male & married to females but if we were't would our sexual orientation really factor into this? Are those who differ from the norm also not welcome here? You must still be in high school
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There may be more value in tourneys than cash games from an expectation point of view because most players have a flawed approach to the dynamic environment of tourney play. Early on, certain players make mistakes (playing too loose, frivilous steal attempts) while, later in the tourney, they may make entirely different mistakes (such as playing weak near the money). They may also hack away at tourneys for a long time before realizing that they're not winning tournament players. This may be further confused by the prospect of a losing player being in the black after a 'lucky' cash.A cash game is far more static of an environment. Your typical gear-shifting plays are only in response to what other players are doing or have done in the past. These concerns are present in tourney play, as well.While it's hard to define the value in tournament play because of all the abstractions of value and luck elements in tournaments, a lot of players have made it pretty clear that they are monstrously beating the game, at least in the short run. It's just hard as hell to quantify how much of an edge they have whereas in cash games, you can make this determination a lot more confidently.If you're beating nl600 for a dollar a hand and can beat MTTs for a ROI at the $100 level that would provide similar per-hand or per-hour rates, it's up to you to determine whether or not it is worth the wait between big cashes that make that return a reality.

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Bleacher,I'm not sure if you have read this thread over yet, but I think you should. I will agree with you that some people may take things a little too far with the insults sometimes, but you posted two somewhat hostile, insulting threads before anyone insulted you.You said that people on this site should do some fact checking. Well if you had taken some time to check things out yourself, you would have realized you were running into a long standing joke. As far as everyone on this site flaming people just because they have fewer posts, I couldn't disagree with you more. I have been a member here for a while and don't have many posts, but I find almost all my posts are met with sensible replies and little flaming. However if you come in with an attitude and insult people, you will most definitely get flamed, no matter how many posts you have.
Damn it Aces! You just cost me $50. I bet my partner I could keep the flames flowing without anything resembling a rational response for at least 3 pages. Once again you guys need to stop and think before pulling the trigger. Look at my join date. I lurk on here all the time. Do you really think I don't know about the running joke relating to ZeeJustin's real name and that birth certificate that was posted. (That was good by the way).It's too easy to get a rise out you guys. 1,000 posts in strat. Doubtful. Very Doubtful. Maybe you ought to start a discussion on the proper technique for cow tipping Drawing...
life partner?
Thank You! Just got my $50 back. I had to lay 5-1 but I was certain the first response would relate to that. I originally had it written as "business partner" but I couldn't pass up an opportunity.We're both male & married to females but if we were't would our sexual orientation really factor into this? Are those who differ from the norm also not welcome here? You must still be in high school
Damn, you just cost me $50! I called up my cousin when I saw this thread and bet him that you wouldn't try to come up with some way to justify your cockbaggery. He was all like "no way man, he's totally going to post something like 'I'm with the CIA' or 'It was all a dream' in an attempt to not look like a doofus." And I was like "no, no, he's dug himself a hole deep enough already, he won't go for that extra effort." But I was so, so wrong.
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There may be more value in tourneys than cash games from an expectation point of view because most players have a flawed approach to the dynamic environment of tourney play. Early on, certain players make mistakes (playing too loose, frivilous steal attempts) while, later in the tourney, they may make entirely different mistakes (such as playing weak near the money). They may also hack away at tourneys for a long time before realizing that they're not winning tournament players. This may be further confused by the prospect of a losing player being in the black after a 'lucky' cash.
Generally speaking, the MAIN mistake that bad players make is playing too loose. The fact that they tighten up towards the end of a tournament really just guides their play closer to what is optimal. Of course there are individuals who play "too tight", but those are few and far between.In general, i think that the mistakes that typical 'bad players' make are more exploitable in cash games. But there isnt that much of a difference, really - and im not sure it could be "proven" either way. For the other part,I dont know if bad players are naturally attracted to tournaments because they're more likely to get misleading results. I mean, they may very well bust out several times in a row without making pay, and dismiss it as rigged... only to take a shot at cash games, and have some success.On average, i dont see any reason why they would be more likely to have a good run at tournaments than they would at cash games though (or the other way around).
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I dont know if bad players are naturally attracted to tournaments because they're more likely to get misleading results. I mean, they may very well bust out several times in a row without making pay, and dismiss it as rigged... only to take a shot at cash games, and have some success.On average, i dont see any reason why they would be more likely to have a good run at tournaments than they would at cash games though (or the other way around).
It's easier to dismiss a tourney loss because you don't expect to win very often. Only 10% of the players cash. However, blind aggression may pay off better in the short format of a tournament where players can't reload and take shots at the aggressive player.Because of that, you should be less likely to have a good run at tournaments. However, when you do, there's a lot of incentive to play more because of your padded bankroll.I probably overvalue some of these things tho.
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