disconnection ethics

[Hotmark777 0]

Take everything you can, over and over and over.There my first post was not "Hey Daniel" OR "Hi I'm new here".I say take it, take it all if you can as fast as you can.Boooya.

[Abbaddabba 0]

I don't necessarily mean dying in front of you, maybe he just has to be rushed to the hospital. Would you insist that they keep dealing? Or would you propose some sort of chop?

Depends on what i thought of the guy. If he was an ass, you better believe he's getting nothing more than he is guaranteed.It also depends on how much money we're talking about.If the pay difference between 1st and 2nd is a quarter mill, im probably not going to propose we split the difference (supposing we have equal chip stacks0. Being a "good" person isnt worth that much to me.At the same time, if the difference is a few hundred dollars, I'll tell them to chop it relative to the chip count.

[Smiddywap 0]

Big general response to everything I can remember from reading the thread:To the people who would steal without any guilt, I can see where you're coming from. Poker is generally seen as a cutthroat game and I certainly don't fault you for feeling that way.The reason I would sit out isn't because I need to be the nice guy or want the other person's respect; I'm not only taking the other player's feelings into consideration. I would do it mainly because I play poker more for the game than making money. While I am profitable, I'm in it just to have fun. It's no fun to systematically win the match by clicking a button a few times. When we get up to the $65k pay differences, then my respect for the other person does come into play.About the 'do it, because they'd do it to you' mentality, you're probably right, many (probably most) people would be stealing in this situation. I really don't have a response to that other than it doesn't change my mind. I'm not trying to be all self-righteous, I guess it still just falls back to my previous point.Some people made the point that the guy should have had a better connection. This doesn't only happen to people whose connection is terrible. I've got cable, it goes down very rarely but it does happen, I've been disconnected twice in two months while playing poker (luckily both times ring games).Someone noted that the blinds are raising as this occurs. That's a good point, but for the length of time I'd be willing to wait it likely wouldn't have much of an effect. At most one or two levels would pass before I figured the guy wasn't coming back.One person asked if moral obligation would cause me to fold premium hands. Yes, because the other guy is being forced to do the same.I believe poker isn't inherently unethical. Everyone basically knows what they're getting into when they sit down or log on: it's a game where you try to take other people's money and they do the same to you. At that point is something like check-raising unethical? Of course not, everyone knew the rules when they joined in. The same goes with outdrawing someone, it's part of the game. Would you consider internet connection to be a part of the game? I don't, it's just something that allows you to play the game.

[jooka 0]

Id put this in the extremely low character category similar to when during one of the wsop final tables this year at the heads up point that dickhead(cant remember his name) calling for the f bomb rule. While its legit in the rules somewhat, its certainly not a legacy I would want looming over my head to the community that watched me do it. its not the type of person I am and would not want that to be reflected back at me by the community.

[Don Giovanni 0]

there is nothing unethical about stealing peoples blinds when they disconnect. that guy was the luckiest person ever. hes in a huge tournament, in the final two, and the other guy disconnects. oh my god how i would be laughing and stealing blinds if i were him. ha, that would be the greatest thing ever, and this guy gives back the money? thats crazy.

[augmented 0]

i see valid points on both sides, and so i'm not exactly sure what my opinion is. but i do have a question.what's all in protection?

[srblan 0]

i see valid points on both sides, and so i'm not exactly sure what my opinion is. but i do have a question.what's all in protection?

If you are disconnected when you have money in the pot, you are treated as if you are all in for the main pot, and all action is in a side pot.

[Abbaddabba 0]

I believe poker isn't inherently unethical. Everyone basically knows what they're getting into when they sit down or log on: it's a game where you try to take other people's money and they do the same to you. At that point is something like check-raising unethical? Of course not, everyone knew the rules when they joined in. The same goes with outdrawing someone, it's part of the game. Would you consider internet connection to be a part of the game? I don't, it's just something that allows you to play the game.

:!: There are people who believe that checkraising is unethical.Ive had people complain to me in live games about it. Kinda made me laugh a bit. Ive also had people complain about people who raise preflop.People have all sorts of wacky ethical issues.

[UNCpoker 0]

First let me say the few times I have been disconnected, my blinds were stolen.But I guess there are several situations where things could vary. In a big tourney like this, I wouldn't steal blinds as quick as I could, but I would take them. I would let each hand last as long as it could without me folding a hand, calling within a few seconds before I had to each hand.While it's unfortunate that the other guy is disconnected, I don't feel any obligation on my part that would penalize myself, my stack or play later in the match.After about 10-15 minutes of slow playing, I would then steal them quicker as I am not going to sit around all night to wait on somebody that maybe their ISP went down, their PC was fried or had a power outage.Not sure if this is unethical or not, but we all play be the same risks, what precautions we take are on us.I have read on several sites of players who play online for a living and most all talk about having backups, whether your ISP, another computer, extra mouse, battery backup, etc.

[EStormOk 0]

I don't see myself getting into this situation, unless the other guy didn't want to chop. As soon as we got hu, I would have been talking chop for that kind of money. If the other player had been unreasonable when trying to work out a chop, I would steal the blinds like a thief in the night!EStormOk

[Spademan 94]

I'd be curious to see how many people would entirely shift their viewpoint if this post had been written by a recognized poster who was on the short end of the disconnect.."Too bad, man! Poker is about getting the edge in whatever way possible!"You're probably the same players who wouldn't push a pot you'd "won" to a player who tabled his hand and had it misread by the dealer. Poker is about winning no matter what the cost? Give me a break. How many of you think dreamclown should have shown some class against DN and played for his last HU, even if it wasn't a very high-expectation situation? Anyone who exploits this situation is a scumbag, pure and simple.-lupin

You're untardable, pure and simple.I wouldn't give a fck who it was, there is nothing wrong with stealing the blinds here.If you're playing for 65k, have another internet line set up, in case of a disconnect, fcktard.

[Spademan 94]

You didn't answer my question about a player having a heart attack at the table in a live tournament.

Apples and oranges, your rhetoric is faulty.You can safegaurd against disconnect in a number of different ways, and if you're playing for 65k... you probably should.You can't carry around two hearts.And, even if it took your strawman at face value, I'd take the pot/tourn vs Mr. Heart Attack, and tell his family he shouldn't have had that last burger.

[KTW 0]

I'm on a 56k in Iowa, I log in at like, 44.4 if I'm lucky.

I used to connect at 33,600 with mine so I feel your pain. I can now MAX transfer at about 250KBps with my cable and I wish that was higher. I remember back in the day downloading an Mp3 I really wanted and it took me almost 3 hours. :roll:

[KTW 0]

I've also had people complain about people who raise preflop.

The check raise thing is not that uncommon;especially for clueless players. The pre flop raise 1 is weird. :roll:

[KTW 0]

Sorry about the dupe post guys, I'm not sure how to get rid of it.

If someone posts after you, you can only edit and not delete. :wink:

[clingfree 0]

I steal the blinds here. No question. Won't even feel bad about it.There is recent history to look at as well. Anyone remember the guy who was at dinner longer during the WSOP than everyone. Only one guy at the table felt bad about him getting blinded down because of a misunderstanding.No real question here. Take em as fast as you can.

[SpeedKills 0]

I would have taken as much as I can get.

[DanielNegreanu 141]

I was asked to chime in, and I've covered this before with friends in the past. My rule would be as simple as this: if I knew the person I'd wait for him, provided I know that he'd do the same for me. If however, I was up against someone I didn't know, I couldn't be sure they'd do that for me. It happened to me actually. I was waiting for a $5000 sit n'go heads up and went to the backyard to clean the pool. I was gone about 8 minutes, and when I got back I was $5000 poorer. I played the guy again and he thought nothing of it. I then beat him down like a stepchild and won back $30,000 plus my original $5000. Karma is something isn't it? LOL :-)

[Phillip_339 0]

I was asked to chime in, and I've covered this before with friends in the past. My rule would be as simple as this: if I knew the person I'd wait for him, provided I know that he'd do the same for me. If however, I was up against someone I didn't know, I couldn't be sure they'd do that for me. It happened to me actually. I was waiting for a $5000 sit n'go heads up and went to the backyard to clean the pool. I was gone about 8 minutes, and when I got back I was $5000 poorer. I played the guy again and he thought nothing of it. I then beat him down like a stepchild and won back $30,000 plus my original $5000. Karma is something isn't it? LOL :-)

Haha, thanks heaps Daniel! And what are you doing cleaning the pool, when you have $5000 on the line?

[elaear 0]

I played the guy again and he thought nothing of it.  I then beat him down like a stepchild and won back $30,000 plus my original $5000.  Karma is something isn't it? LOL :-)

hahaha! man, i think that's first time you exhibited some sadistic humor. very nice, DN... i didn't think you had it in ya.

[byaaatch 0]

I think if you believe in karma you dont steal the blinds if you dont care go ahead and steal the blinds but karma is a mofo.

[HoosierAlum 0]

I'd break my fcking mouse stealing.

[Dizzyg8r 0]

If you were in a live tournament and a player had a heart attack, would you start pounding away at his blinds, claiming that you were maximizing your edge? I don't see this situation as being any different.

I don't think the heart attack situation is analogous at all. The more accurate comparison would be if you were in a live tourney, and during the middle of a hand your opponent stands up, and without a word simply walked away from the table for a certain amount of time. Not knowing where he was going or if he would come back, would you simply sit and wait for him or would you steal the blinds? I certainly wouldn't wait, and in the online scenario, unless it was someone I knew, I would be stealing like crazy as well. Having a reliabile high speed isp is something people can control and if they don't purchase one, then they risk disconnecting during critical moments when they play online.

[kennyg1966 0]

I was asked to chime in, and I've covered this before with friends in the past. My rule would be as simple as this: if I knew the person I'd wait for him, provided I know that he'd do the same for me. If however, I was up against someone I didn't know, I couldn't be sure they'd do that for me. It happened to me actually. I was waiting for a $5000 sit n'go heads up and went to the backyard to clean the pool. I was gone about 8 minutes, and when I got back I was $5000 poorer. I played the guy again and he thought nothing of it. I then beat him down like a stepchild and won back $30,000 plus my original $5000. Karma is something isn't it? LOL :-)

good point..if ya know they will do it for you....then wait..otherwise..steal away!!

[thrillsoft 0]

I read Daniel's reply and am ashamed. For a person who puts himself out as a Christian and promotes the virtues of that religion, I'm surprised that he would approach the situation in such and under-handed way. Who cares if someone did it to him? What about the "Golden Rule"? He says that he would not do it to someone he is friends with, but would do it to a total stranger. That is total hypocracy!I'm not a Christian or a member of any other religion for that matter. However, I do have respect for my fellow man and would never do such a thing to anyone. Even if they did it to me. I'm not afraid of "Karma" or any other such absurd notion, however I am afraid of losing my self-respect as well as the respect of my fellow man and for my fellow man.If I cannot walk away from a big tournament a winner and proudly tell my friends that I won it fair and square, then I'd prefer to lose like a man and say that I went down fighting. I would prefer not to have such a hollow victory. I've read this entire "debate" which in my mind is nothing more than excuses and justifications for selfish, greedy and under-handed behavior. For those of you who said that in a small tournament, you would sit-out, but in a big one such as this, you would take the money and run... that is even WORSE! You know it is wrong, but would do it if the money was big enough? Would you not rob a convenience store, but definitely would rob a bank?Daniel... I agreed totally with your blog and arguments for why DreamClown should have continued to play you. Not so much out of the mathematical reasoning, but more for the decency and respect one should have for their fellow players. I'm not only talking about poker, but in life in general. I don't know how you can ask for respect and courtesy from all players when you, yourself have just admitted that you would only extend it to a few players. That is shameful! I still have enormous respect for you as a player, but have lost a little bit for you as a person.