re: old school vs. new school blog

[CardWarfare 4]

I just finished reading DN's "old school vs new school" blog and I have to say I am really glad a distiguished pro made a point to talk about this issue. I believe it's one of the blemishes on the poker community nowadays. While I would consider myself still a "rookie" (playing about 2 years), I've noticed an overall attitude from most of the players I've played online, and even in the local cardroom that I frequent. However, the attitude online is far more condesending and often outright rude. There are the players who, like DN mentioned, refuse to cut a break to anyone, regardless of the situation. The other frequent annoyance is the fact that everyone is a poker whiz-kid, and will often berate and lecture you for making creative plays. At the lower limits, where play is often very straight forward, I would occasionally make a creative play based on my opponent and my take of the situation at the time. Most of the time, this ended in a frequently vulgar explanation of how I am a terrible player and I don't know what I'm doing. While DN and most of the top pros would compliment a player on his play, it seems as if online players simply take it as stupid and lucky, and will not hesitate to tell you so, because everybody's much tougher behind a computer screen. Even on many poker forums, the amount of abuse people take for either being new to the forum, or posting a simple question is absurd. Everybody has had similar questions when they were getting started, and I'm sure most of us have had similar criticism and taken similar abuse. I'm not suggesting that criticism is bad, because it is not by any means, and often is extremely helpful, I'm just saying the unnecessary and sometimes personal abuse crosses the line more times that not.

[doublemeup 0]

I just finished reading DN's "old school vs new school" blog and I have to say I am really glad a distiguished pro made a point to talk about this issue. I believe it's one of the blemishes on the poker community nowadays. While I would consider myself still a "rookie" (playing about 2 years), I've noticed an overall attitude from most of the players I've played online, and even in the local cardroom that I frequent. However, the attitude online is far more condesending and often outright rude. There are the players who, like DN mentioned, refuse to cut a break to anyone, regardless of the situation. The other frequent annoyance is the fact that everyone is a poker whiz-kid, and will often berate and lecture you for making creative plays. At the lower limits, where play is often very straight forward, I would occasionally make a creative play based on my opponent and my take of the situation at the time. Most of the time, this ended in a frequently vulgar explanation of how I am a terrible player and I don't know what I'm doing. While DN and most of the top pros would compliment a player on his play, it seems as if online players simply take it as stupid and lucky, and will not hesitate to tell you so, because everybody's much tougher behind a computer screen. Even on many poker forums, the amount of abuse people take for either being new to the forum, or posting a simple question is absurd. Everybody has had similar questions when they were getting started, and I'm sure most of us have had similar criticism and taken similar abuse. I'm not suggesting that criticism is bad, because it is not by any means, and often is extremely helpful, I'm just saying the unnecessary and sometimes personal abuse crosses the line more times that not.

The space bar is your friend.

[DanielNegreanu 141]

FYP... which means Fixed Your Post :-) Just a note that it is really much easier to read posts that are separated into paragraphs with spaces in between. Next time you post like that I'm gonna smash your head against the wall and beat you down son! Yeah, that's right I'm tough, I'm reeeeal tough! (when I'm hiding behind a computer screen that is :oops: (SW)

[Napa_Don 688]

FYP... which means Fixed Your Post :-)  Just a note that it is really much easier to read posts that are separated into paragraphs with spaces in between.  Next time you post like that I'm gonna smash your head against the wall and beat you down son!  Yeah, that's right I'm tough, I'm reeeeal tough! (when I'm hiding behind a computer screen that is  :oops:  (SW)

I can't help but chuckle at this....+1

[Golden 2]

FYP... which means Fixed Your Post :-)  Just a note that it is really much easier to read posts that are separated into paragraphs with spaces in between.  Next time you post like that I'm gonna smash your head against the wall and beat you down son!  Yeah, that's right I'm tough, I'm reeeeal tough! (when I'm hiding behind a computer screen that is  :oops:  (SW)

It may be an (sw), but the man has a point.

[Timinator99 0]

(SW)

Stupid question: What is (SW)??

[soup 0]

FYP... which means Fixed Your Post :-)  Just a note that it is really much easier to read posts that are separated into paragraphs with spaces in between.  Next time you post like that I'm gonna smash your head against the wall and beat you down son!  Yeah, that's right I'm tough, I'm reeeeal tough! (when I'm hiding behind a computer screen that is  :oops:  (SW)

that's the best thing i've read on this forum... on a serious note, i also believe this is the best journal post to date. It takes a big man to admit he's up against a bigger man(online vs live). but still the desire to learn makes the difference. i applaude anyone willing to improve their lives by taking their lumps. i have every confidence in Daniels play but, even if he loses again the experience gained is priceless. With the boom of internet poker players getting shots at the "big dance" it's a great idea to get into their minds. it could really benefit him in the long run. great post Daniel..

[nell789 0]

(SW)

Stupid question: What is (SW)??

(Sarcasm Warning)

[Logun 0]

It was a good read tonight. I'm glad he did say something about it. I'm curious to hear other people's opinions though.If you were Dreamclown do you play for the last 5,000$?I think I would give my opponent a shot but let him know that I'm not prepared to give him all him winnings back. That would just be stupid.However it would be a nice jesture to afford DN the opportunity to win some back.I would love to have seen what he (Dreamclown) thinks he would have done were this a live game.

[dfresh 0]

I agree completely about players being disrespectful(to put it mildly), especially online, but I think Daniel is being pretty hypocritical as to someone's choice of when and when not to play. When Daniel bought in at the no limit game at Wynn for $125,000 he argued that a player has the choice to leave a game anytime they want to. Now that he disagree's with someone's choice to play it's bad ettiquette?Just my 2 cents.

[getarealjob 0]

Re: the blog.Very well-written. I enjoyed reading it.Negreanu is talking about old school class... the kind of class Doyle, John Bonetti, T.J. Cloutier--the rest of the old guard--have. I liked the reference to the NBA and MJ. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar said something similar in an interview. The new NBA is vastly different than the old NBA in so many unforunate ways.Not every internet-bred player lacks the social skills Negreanu is talking about, but I think the vast majority are probably lacking. Dreamclown might be a good player, but his childish antics are repugnant.Crush that piece of ish.

[The Jackal 0]

The other frequent annoyance is the fact that everyone is a poker whiz-kid, and will often berate and lecture you for making creative plays.  Even on many poker forums, the amount of abuse people take for either being new to the forum, or posting a simple question is absurd.

These two things annoy me more than anything. :wall: What's worse is these wiz-kids are usually terrible players! Oh and CardWarfare...don't make that Negreanu guy mad, I hear he's HUGE! 8)

[AtariPunk 0]

I am also a rookie (playing for only 9 months), but I have had more than enough experience with rude players on the internet. I suspect this thread may turn into a rant, but I also suspect that many players in this forum have behaved the same way, probably worse.Instead of venting my anger (that's right - pure anger) towards these players, I would hope to make more of a "quality contribution" to the forum and try to make a small difference in my new "poker world" home.For those of you reading this thread, I would assume Daniel Negreanu is a mentor, idol, hero, or role model to you. He is to me. His latest blog may be a politically correct answer or his true feelings, but either way, it strengthens my point. I must say, there is quite a challenge written there, if you read it correctly. Daniel forgot to mention when he'll be at the Wynn.My point is that Daniel has lived up to his responsibility as a role model by showing that even in the face of public berating, he has considered another player's (another PERSON's) self-worth by attempting to understand that person's actions and decisions. He has respected that player as a human being. In my opinion, he has shown he is a better man, win or lose.I would challenge anyone reading this thread to take a page from Daniel's book and become a better person by respecting players more on the Internet. Not a player's ability, but a player's personal right to exist. You never know who you might meet in a B&M card room (eg, the WSOP), and when they find out that you play on FCP and your screen name is [blank], they may do more than type a few nasty phrases in a chat box.However, more towards the topic of Daniel's last blog post, the Clown (as I have affectionately dubbed him) may have been taunting Daniel in order to gain an edge when he undoubtedly plays him again. Although this may be classless and tasteless, it is indeed part of the game. I would venture to say that Daniel is probably not all that spun up over it, but peer pressure is a MF, so his response was psychologically just as important.I hope Daniel wins all of his money back and then some. Not because he can't afford to lose, or that he's even a better player than the Clown, but because he is a better person than the Clown (well, at least publicly - right?).

[Stewie 0]

Im just a noob here, but that article made me have to sign up...Is it not possible we can get this little whiz kid to sign up and post his side of the story on the forum? I never play such high limits, but if I had won 95% of someones bankroll, and they wanted one last hand, all in, blind - I'd be more than willing to oblidge.Some mothers children! :roll:

[PocketBoat 0]

FYP... which means Fixed Your Post :-) Just a note that it is really much easier to read posts that are separated into paragraphs with spaces in between. Next time you post like that I'm gonna smash your head against the wall and beat you down son! Yeah, that's right I'm tough, I'm reeeeal tough! (when I'm hiding behind a computer screen that is :oops: (SW)

that's the best thing i've read on this forum... on a serious note, i also believe this is the best journal post to date. It takes a big man to admit he's up against a bigger man(online vs live). but still the desire to learn makes the difference. i applaude anyone willing to improve their lives by taking their lumps. i have every confidence in Daniels play but, even if he loses again the experience gained is priceless. With the boom of internet poker players getting shots at the "big dance" it's a great idea to get into their minds. it could really benefit him in the long run. great post Daniel..

DN, would you please shovel some more manure onto my plate for lunch? You guys are laughable how you drink the kool-aid of a losing poker player. Wouldn't expect anything less than a bible-toter creating a community of worship to himself...david koresh surely wasn't getting ass because he was good looking, and DN surely isn't getting praise because he is a good poker player, funny, intelligent, etc...

[TheMathProf 0]

I, too, have been noticing this old school vs. new school type mentality, but in life in general, rather than just in poker.On demand immediate gratification has become the norm, it would seem...

[llou 0]

.......My point is that Daniel has lived up to his responsibility as a role model by showing that even in the face of public berating, he has considered another player's (another PERSON's) self-worth by attempting to understand that person's actions and decisions. He has respected that player as a human being. In my opinion, he has shown he is a better man, win or lose.....I hope Daniel wins all of his money back and then some. Not because he can't afford to lose, or that he's even a better player than the Clown, but because he is a better person than the Clown (well, at least publicly - right?).

I agree totally and wrote a similar post within another, related thread. Welcome to the forums. I look forward to reading your future posts.llou

[llou 0]

I, too, have been noticing this old school vs. new school type mentality, but in life in general, rather than just in poker.On demand immediate gratification has become the norm, it would seem...

Me too. I am currently trying to develop a Self Learning Package for the leadership teams where I work on how to deal with. It seems that some of our employees, particularly the newer ones, are causing some real problems with their attitudes and behaviors. They don't seem to know how to get along with other people and/or make an investment in the work community that will enable the whole work team to succeed and accomplish anything.It's a real problem.llou

[PocketBoat 0]

I, too, have been noticing this old school vs. new school type mentality, but in life in general, rather than just in poker.On demand immediate gratification has become the norm, it would seem...

Me too. I am currently trying to develop a Self Learning Package for the leadership teams where I work on how to deal with. It seems that some of our employees, particularly the newer ones, are causing some real problems with their attitudes and behaviors. They don't seem to know how to get along with other people and/or make an investment in the work community that will enable the whole work team to succeed and accomplish anything.It's a real problem.llou

You guys are so laughable. Role Model? Respecting self worth? Learning Packages? Hahahahahaha.....it's poker and it's a violent fu**ing game....you blow-hards that pride yourself in losing with grace and admire those who do need to find another hobby. The irony is DN isn't a gracious loser--he's a loser, and in his thirst to be admired, has to spin that losing somehow.

[DeadStroke 0]

I have played pool for many years and I know exactly where Daniel is coming from. I used to play a lot, work on my game, try to become better. There were players that I wouldn't play just because I didn't care for their demeanor, others I'd play, knowing that in the long run I'd lose money, but would "pay for the experience". I don't know how many times, I'd hear from one of the duchbags "You play Jerome with that spot and he's better than me", my reply was simple, "I don't mind losing money to Jerome"I've also hung around many of the pro's, watched them gamble. Some had class and would continue to play the "fish" after taking a ton of money from him, were gentlemen while they were doing it. Others would quit playing the guy until he had the proper amount for the game. Pool is a lot different than Poker though, it has never exploded to the level of Poker, but much of the same principles that Daniel stated apply. Many of the "Nits" give the game a bad name, chase away some of the fish, won't cut the guy a break. People that you just enjoy watching/hearing that they got their asses handed to them. Dreamclown, I'm sure is a good internet player, but I'd love to watch/hear about a match headsup in a casino. I'd love to see him try NL against Daniel or 2-7 or Omaha or stud. The reality is he hasn't got the ability to make a game out of any of the others or he would have challenged Daniel a long time ago. So The Clown is a good limit, headsup, internet poker player. Daniel is a good poker player. A big difference when you put all of those stipulations in front of "poker player" to define the clown's ability. The clown has no manners or class, Daniel does.A lot of guys won't get it and I'm sure that many of them at neverwin won't.

[Herr Baader 0]

You guys are so laughable. Role Model? Respecting self worth? Learning Packages? Hahahahahaha.....it's poker and it's a violent fu**ing game....you blow-hards that pride yourself in losing with grace and admire those who do need to find another hobby. The irony is DN isn't a gracious loser--he's a loser, and in his thirst to be admired, has to spin that losing somehow.

Actually, no. Poker is not a "violent fu**ing game." It's a game easily given over to all sorts of hackneyed violent metaphors, metaphors of war and combat and a lot of other pathetic posturing (see the unintentionally brilliant posts by PMC for some prime examples), but it is not, in itself, a "violent fu**ing game." It is a game of high adrenaline, that when combined with the player being behind an alias, causes some rather unfortunate behavior in many of its players; but that says more about the players than it does about the game.BTW, I DID think your David Koresh analogy was pretty funny, considering some of the naked sycophantism that goes on around here, but that's another issue.Best to you.

[7upncider 0]

I really respect dn oppinion he said it best about online players. I've been playing poker 20 years now and just bought a computer 6 months ago so i'm alittle behind the times. I've been playing some fake chips at ftp and fcp. I.ve learned one thing DONT PLAY FAKE CHIPS you cant learn nothing.I'm gonna deposit some money in fcp and see what i can learn too. so gla and best of all have fun in this crazy world of the internet poker has presented. Sorry if i ran on to long this is all somewhat new to me. :wall:

[Jelly-Filled Ace 1]

Having 30+ years of poker experience, it was a joy to read this blog. Dreamclown broke the biggest (unwritten) rule in all of poker. You just don't walk out on a player when have him down but not out, and you never negotiate terms of rebuy until the opponent is broke, in fact in most, if not all, cases it's proper to let the beaten opponent say 'I'm done' or I'll be back in 15 minutes' or whatever. If the winner wants to leave, so be it, he's under no obligation to wait for his opponent to raise more cash. The smart move would be to oblige though. I can without hesitation say that in the right game this kid would go out on a stretcher trying to pull a stunt like that - and deservedly so. Trust me when I tell you I would absolutely join in on the thumpin' party.Clearly the times have changed and certainly not for the better. The faceless community has the advantage - for now.DN has me on the same two-way street as most of us over playing this kid again. One side just screams to reload and bust his ass, but I equally hate giving an idiot such as Dreamclown more action.I hope you shread this kid.

[Gene zzz 0]

I can understand the table rules now, DN will have to learn the rules of internet play and the ways of putting players in thier places. He will learn fast and not care anymore soon ;nits are huge on the web and I have played in games that melt right before your eyes. Thats how NL gets so big with a arsenal of allins these clowns die young. That hard player may not be alive for any losing so DN will be stuck. If clown is tough he will be at the highest limit, STngo are more pure on the web you have to play and you have to win or lose according to honor. I said it before on the other theards ring games are hustles and this is why I think that. I am all net and only relishs the real for the long rounds ,reads and speed(slower). I am no good to the old ways but that ploy of no small stacks is a con and a sure sign - donkey, will that 20,000 go to a buyin at the WPT? no! But learn the mubo and live and let die the dudes at the casino your fellow pros are with ya and living good; Internet players are junkies and living bad ,they say you cann't bluff on the net nther,I just got everyone to fold to a K high so keep your heart for those who understand that clown may not care a bit.

[tommycp1 0]

When I first read the post, the thing that came to mind is why Dreamclown didn't just loan DN the money if he thought he was getting the best of it. Not that I would lend money to poker players in general but DN is just about the most straight up guy in the poker world right now and I doubt he would stiff anyone, in any situation, let alone on his own friggin website.From all of I have read and seen in the poker world over the last three years, top players loan money all the time, even times when they know they won't see it for a while. I guess this is the "old school" approach...TC in Chicago.