a good spot to value bet?

[Rocketwadster 0]

I have posted a few hands from FCP at the low limit Omaha tables, showing some truly brutal plays and/or players. Since then, my opinion has not changed at all. I'm far from an expert, but some things just don't make sense to me...Based on the fact that 90% of the people I am currently playing against are total donks, my hand in this particular matchup, and my position in this hand, I put in a bet on the river, which, at the time, I was positive was a value bet. Was I wrong?Omaha Hi $0.25-$0.50 (real money), hand #1,592,511,015Table Calgary, 15 Dec 2005 1:56 PM ETSeat 2: Greg-HSeat 3: stoneanthSeat 4: poorintaiwanSeat 5: treebee777Seat 6: Rocketwad0 [ 5D,2H,3H,AC ]Seat 7: NodgaardSeat 8: Figger0Seat 9: iplo66Seat 10: RabbotANTES/BLINDSNodgaard posts blind ($0.15), Figger0 posts blind ($0.25), stoneanth posts blind ($0.25).PRE-FLOPiplo66 folds, Rabbot folds, Greg-H calls $0.25, stoneanth checks, poorintaiwan folds, treebee777 calls $0.25, Rocketwad0 calls $0.25, Nodgaard calls $0.10, Figger0 checks.FLOP [board cards 4S,6D,9C ]Nodgaard bets $0.25, Figger0 folds, Greg-H calls $0.25, stoneanth calls $0.25, treebee777 calls $0.25, Rocketwad0 calls $0.25.TURN [board cards 4S,6D,9C,QD ]Nodgaard checks, Greg-H checks, stoneanth checks, treebee777 checks, Rocketwad0 checks.RIVER [board cards 4S,6D,9C,QD,5H ]Nodgaard checks, Greg-H checks, stoneanth checks, treebee777 checks, Rocketwad0 bets $0.50, Nodgaard calls $0.50, Greg-H folds, stoneanth folds, treebee777 folds.Folded to me on the button, I made the dummy end of the straight. My opponents were probably on a draw and missed, or have something like two pair or trips. I figured that THOSE hands would see my bet on the end as some sort of steal and call me, hence my thinking that I was making a value bet.SHOWDOWNRocketwad0 shows [ 5D,2H,3H,AC ]Nodgaard shows [ QS,7H,10D,8D ]Nodgaard wins $3.50.What the??? This guy has the nuts, checks it (perhaps hoping someone after him bet, so he could raise?), sees someone bet, and just calls (perhaps hoping that people behind him would call one bet as opposed to two if he raised?). I was baffled at his play at the time, but based on what I have seen so far on these tables at this site, I am not surprised looking back on it.

[Fritzmania 0]

1. I wouldn't have even been in the hand. That's an 8/b hand, not a high hand.2. I would have also thrown in a value bet with that many checks to me.

[Rocketwadster 0]

1. I wouldn't have even been in the hand. That's an 8/b hand, not a high hand.

From on the button, you are folding here? I know the ace isnt suited, but still, all my cards are working together, and I have position... :?

[alexanbo 0]

Well the thing about that hand is you made pretty much the best hand you could expect out of it and still lost. The hand makes very very few hands that are the nuts which I think you want especially with that many people seeing the flop.

[Fritzmania 0]

1. I wouldn't have even been in the hand. That's an 8/b hand, not a high hand.

From on the button, you are folding here? I know the ace isnt suited, but still, all my cards are working together, and I have position... :?

All you've got is a baby flush draw and a straight draw than can easily be beat. Not the strongest of hands. You can play this hand, but understand that when you do, this is a loose play. a TAG is probably not playing this hand. I'm probably more likely to play that hand in a tourney than I would in a cash game where the blinds never increase. I can wait for a better hand than that.And I should qualify all of this by telling you my VPIP over 20,000 hands is 25%.

[Rocketwadster 0]

All you've got is a baby flush draw and a straight draw than can easily be beat. Not the strongest of hands. You can play this hand, but understand that when you do, this is a loose play. a TAG is probably not playing this hand. I'm probably more likely to play that hand in a tourney than I would in a cash game where the blinds never increase. I can wait for a better hand than that.And I should qualify all of this by telling you my VPIP over 20,000 hands is 25%.

Are those 20K worth of hands on tables like I have described? What is your VPIP when on the button (I guarantee you that it is much higher than that)...According to PT, I have a VPIP percentage of 27.17 in Limit Omaha Hi (not nearly as many hands as that)...I will complete with this type of hand any day at that type of table from the button. If I am wrong for doing so, so be it. 8)

[richgambler 0]

1. I wouldn't have even been in the hand. That's an 8/b hand, not a high hand.2. I would have also thrown in a value bet with that many checks to me.

I agree 100% with both of these points.....when I first saw your hand I had to check and see if you were playing O8 instead of hi....not a good high hand, to say the least....

[Rocketwadster 0]

1. I wouldn't have even been in the hand. That's an 8/b hand, not a high hand.2. I would have also thrown in a value bet with that many checks to me.

I agree 100% with both of these points.....when I first saw your hand I had to check and see if you were playing O8 instead of hi....not a good high hand, to say the least....

Its called position. With a hand that has all four cards working together. The ace isnt suited, but it is definately good enough to see a flop with. I am baffled by the number of people that are spouting off about it being a bad hand, but make no comment on the POSITION. :shock: Where is smash when you need him? I am sure that he would have something to say about this hand (he may say that I am incorrect, and if so, so be it, but I value his comments greatly). 8)

[richgambler 0]

Its called position. With a hand that has all four cards working together. The ace isnt suited, but it is definately good enough to see a flop with. I am baffled by the number of people that are spouting off about it being a bad hand, but make no comment on the POSITION. :shock: Where is smash when you need him? I am sure that he would have something to say about this hand (he may say that I am incorrect, and if so, so be it, but I value his comments greatly). 8)

Thanks man, I understand position...however, exactly how many boards do you think youre going to hit with this hand??? You have close to zero fold equity because its a table full of donks AND its Omaha.....as for Smash, Im laying odds he doesnt play this hand eitherP.S. Please explain bolded statement...how the hell are all 4 of those cards 'working together'????

[Fritzmania 0]

Position is waaaaay overrated in Omaha. I can outplay my opponents from any position on the table; being on the button is honestly unimportant to me, other than pre-flop where I may get in cheap. After the flop, I honestly don't care. Play the right starting hands and position is almost meaningless in Omaha.And there is a BIG difference when playing hands such as 5-6-7-8 and 5-6-7-9. It may not seem like it, but if you run simulations on those two hands, the 5-6-7-8 is statistically a much bigger winner. I think this is what rich is getting at. For your cards to truly all be "working together", they must all be connected.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Position is waaaaay overrated in Omaha.  I can outplay my opponents from any position on the table; being on the button is honestly unimportant to me, other than pre-flop where I may get in cheap.  After the flop, I honestly don't care.  Play the right starting hands and position is almost meaningless in Omaha.And there is a BIG difference when playing hands such as 5-6-7-8 and 5-6-7-9.  It may not seem like it, but if you run simulations on those two hands, the 5-6-7-8 is statistically a much bigger winner.  I think this is what rich is getting at.  For your cards to truly all be "working together", they must all be connected.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anything you say (except for position being overrated, AND your claim to be able to outplay your opponents from any position (you must play only the donks like I do, and not seasoned players to be making a claim like that)), however, I am curious as to your statement that 5 6 7 8 is statistically a much bigger winner than 5 6 7 9. I assume you are not running these hands against each other to come up with that...If indeed that is correct (your statement that is, not that you possibly ran them against each other), that it an excellent little tidbit that anyone who reads this topic will be thankful for knowing (I was unaware and am!)

[Smasharoo 0]

Position is waaaaay overrated in Omaha.Easily the stupidest thing ever posted on this forum.good luck

[Rocketwadster 0]

Position is waaaaay overrated in Omaha.Easily the stupidest thing ever posted on this forum.good luck

Thanks for gracing us with your presence...lolSo smash, would you play this hand from the button, against a bunch of donks?

[Fritzmania 0]

Position is waaaaay overrated in Omaha.  I can outplay my opponents from any position on the table; being on the button is honestly unimportant to me, other than pre-flop where I may get in cheap.  After the flop, I honestly don't care.  Play the right starting hands and position is almost meaningless in Omaha.And there is a BIG difference when playing hands such as 5-6-7-8 and 5-6-7-9.  It may not seem like it, but if you run simulations on those two hands, the 5-6-7-8 is statistically a much bigger winner.  I think this is what rich is getting at.  For your cards to truly all be "working together", they must all be connected.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anything you say (except for position being overrated, AND your claim to be able to outplay your opponents from any position (you must play only the donks like I do, and not seasoned players to be making a claim like that)), however, I am curious as to your statement that 5 6 7 8 is statistically a much bigger winner than 5 6 7 9. I assume you are not running these hands against each other to come up with that...If indeed that is correct (your statement that is, not that you possibly ran them against each other), that it an excellent little tidbit that anyone who reads this topic will be thankful for knowing (I was unaware and am!)

Just about every major Omaha writer has discussed needing position as being one of the biggest Omaha myths. I've read this so many times I can't even tell you where I last read it and I don't want to mis-reference the source. But believe me, until you understand that position is essentially meaningless in Omaha, you are not going to take your game to the next level.Let me give you a classic example. Let's say you're on the BB; your hand is unimportant. A guy in EP raises and it is folded around to the button who calls, the SB folds. The flop is J-6-6 rainbow. You are totally out of position and you do not hold a 6. You bet as first to act. The EP raiser and button cannot continue unless they have J-J or 6-6 and cannot risk a raise as you were on the BB and your holdings are likely a little more broad, given you were on the BB. I pull this bluff off almost every single session I play. I can do the same thing with flush draws (I refer you to my article on bluffing).As far as the hand simulations, they were run by a software company, I believe Wilson Software (?). There are various internet articles I have seen with this information posted. Unfortunately, I'm just too lazy to find them right now...I will make an effort in the near future.

[Smasharoo 0]

So smash, would you play this hand from the button, against a bunch of donks?There either has to be a massive raise or I have to have a really really really horrible hand not to play anything on the button. Your hand I'd definately play. Folding that hand to no raise is painfully bad.good luck.

[alexanbo 0]

Isn't the fact you're playing against a bunch of donks make this hand worse to play? With so many people seeing the flop you want to be able to draw to the nuts no?I've been playing Pot Limit though so maybe in this regard limit is a lot different pot limit.

[Smasharoo 0]

Let me give you a classic example. Let's say you're on the BB; your hand is unimportant. A guy in EP raises and it is folded around to the button who calls, the SB folds. The flop is J-6-6 rainbow. You are totally out of position and you do not hold a 6. You bet as first to act. The EP raiser and button cannot continue unless they have J-J or 6-6 and cannot risk a raise as you were on the BB and your holdings are likely a little more broad, given you were on the BB. Ludicrous.Not only will good players re-raise you, bad players will call.good luck.

[Smasharoo 0]

I've been playing Pot Limit though so maybe in this regard limit is a lot different pot limit.Yes, radically diffrent. Hand selection is much more important in limit and position much less so.

[Fritzmania 0]

Let me give you a classic example. Let's say you're on the BB; your hand is unimportant. A guy in EP raises and it is folded around to the button who calls, the SB folds. The flop is J-6-6 rainbow. You are totally out of position and you do not hold a 6. You bet as first to act. The EP raiser and button cannot continue unless they have J-J or 6-6 and cannot risk a raise as you were on the BB and your holdings are likely a little more broad, given you were on the BB.  Ludicrous.Not only will good players re-raise you, bad players will call.good luck.

Since I get away with this every day, I must disagree.

[Smasharoo 0]

Since I get away with this every day, I must disagree.Well, I bet it's profitable for you in mocrolimit games. If you ever move to the next level, though, you'll get destroyed.Of course almost anything is profitable in microlimit games.good luck.

[Rocketwadster 0]

well there you have it. Smash plays it, so I must be learning something. 8)

[Wingmaster05 0]

So what kind of flop are we looking for?Or are we just looking to bet when it's checked to us?

[Rocketwadster 0]

So what kind of flop are we looking for?Or are we just looking to bet when it's checked to us?

I'm not saying I played it correctly, but playing it in the first place IS correct.A bet on the turn by moi would not have done anything in my opinion against these (types of) players. Playing hands like this in position isn't profitable due to its fold equity had I been agressive, but rather by being paid off more by much lesser holdings when I do connect. I've seen two pair try to raise full-houses out of pots on the river at these tables (since FCP got going), which is just sad (or great, depending on your perspective). :-)

[srblan 0]

1. I wouldn't have even been in the hand. That's an 8/b hand, not a high hand.2. I would have also thrown in a value bet with that many checks to me.

I agree 100% with both of these points.....when I first saw your hand I had to check and see if you were playing O8 instead of hi....not a good high hand, to say the least....

Its called position. With a hand that has all four cards working together. The ace isnt suited, but it is definately good enough to see a flop with. I am baffled by the number of people that are spouting off about it being a bad hand, but make no comment on the POSITION. :shock: Where is smash when you need him? I am sure that he would have something to say about this hand (he may say that I am incorrect, and if so, so be it, but I value his comments greatly). 8)

Yes, you have position. Yes, your cards are coordinated. However, you are playing limit omaha from what I could gather, and low-limit at that. In low stakes limit games, you will learn very quickly that position means FAR less than in even low stakes pot limit games.In pot limit, if someone makes a weak bet from early position, they are giving you ammo to raise them out, since any bet they make increases the possible size of your raise. However, in limit, if someone makes a weak bet and you raise without the nuts, it is one more bet for them to look you up. How much more important was position there? Why did you call on the flop? What card were you hoping for? Really, only a 2, and you had one of those in your hand, since a 78 would have had your 5 covered. Here's the problem with playing your hand: you got a good flop, since it was rainbow and you got an OESD out of it, and you still should consider folding, since you are really only drawing to a gutshot, since you are drawing to a low straight.As far as your assertion that your hand is coordinated and therefore playable, think about it, for a second from a hold-em standpoint and separate out each of the hands to think about their playability. You have 5d 2h 3h Ac. Individually, your hands are:5d 2h5d 3h5d Ac2h 3h2h Ac3h AcHow many nut hands can you make with each of those? With 52 offsuit, you are only looking for a board of 552, 34A, or 643 to make the nuts. With 53, the straights you can make are 24A and 246. With A5o, there is NO nut hand possible. Any straight you make will be the sucker end. Same problem with A2. As for 23 and A3, you are looking for A45 and 245. As far as you are concerned, there are only 6 desirable straight boards and a few more nut full house boards that could easily be outdrawn by bigger pairs since you are looking at such small boats. Why play such a vulnerable hand? If there are really only less than 10 desirable boards (ignoring suits), then is coordination really that important in this case? I say probably not.

[srblan 0]

As far as the value betting question, the guy who won the pot played the river so badly that you were definitely correct to value bet. It is one thing if he was trying to check-raise, but it is another thing entirely to check-call with the nuts. I have no idea what was going through his head.