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don't even get me started about average possibilities in a seven handed game with two players left post flop and calculating odds of making a flush with four parts before the turn absent a read what the pot odds must be to warrant a smooth call.
??? Where did this come from? I thought you were debating burn cards. Explain why anyone would want to get you started on anything (other than for entertainment value). This portion of rambling just sounds like you picked random words out of TOP and threw them together. Additionally, punctuation is a good thing.Question: What if you found that FCP burned 7 cards each street? Could you give me the statistics and "house edge" then?Answer: It doesn't matter.BTW - Welcome back JFarrell.
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Why don't you just count all the cards that are in the muck, if they're not random? (EDIT: They should change your %'s too, shouldnt they...swHow are muck cards different than burn cards?)Since you dont know what the card is, it changes no %'s. Talk to the statistics teacher in your high school, and he'll tell you that you're wrong.Wow, I've never seen someone misunderstand statistics so much. I'm a math major with emphasis on probability and statistics, trust me YOU ARE WRONG, Tsosumi.
That is hilarious!!
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don't even get me started about average possibilities in a seven handed game with two players left post flop and calculating odds of making a flush with four parts before the turn absent a read what the pot odds must be to warrant a smooth call.
??? Where did this come from? I thought you were debating burn cards. Explain why anyone would want to get you started on anything (other than for entertainment value). This portion of rambling just sounds like you picked random words out of TOP and threw them together. Additionally, punctuation is a good thing.Question: What if you found that FCP burned 7 cards each street? Could you give me the statistics and "house edge" then?Answer: It doesn't matter.BTW - Welcome back JFarrell.
i'm bored.what's the average possibilty in a seven handed game with two players left post flop and calculating odds of making a flush with four parts before the turn absent a read what the pot odds must be to warrant a smooth call?you might have trouble answering because it's kind of like when you just wake up and you can't understand what anyone is saying so you are pretty sure that the devil is communicating through them. i don't know what you're saying, i don't think you know the answer, and i'm pretty sure you should seek a priest.
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:wall: :wall: :wall: I don't get it... how can you think burning a card online will do anything? It only matters in live games so people don't mark cards and cheat.My mine is blown

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Mmm.... I think you're starting to make a point. However, since I'm not as educated in probabilities as you think you are, could you please explain the variance in your probabilities theory if you were to burn 2 cards instead of one or none. I'd also be interested in knowing the probability variance if they burned 10 cards for the flop, 15 cards for the turn, and 7 on the river.I think you may be able to write a PhD and have a theorem named after you if you can convince the FCP evaluation panel. I'll leave it to the FCP community to provide you with an appropriate name for your theorem.

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Post of the month! :clap:
And it hasn't been stickied yet because....
....more people will read it. Donks will start believing that they lose because of the evidence clearly laid out by the OP. They'll gradually stop playing. The lucrative business of online poker will fall to waste, crippling the global economy and leading to civil and political unrest.I'm bored too.
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Does the FCP online engine burn a card like normal hold em?I recently found out that riverstars, ummm, pokerstars does not burn a card like normal hold em. to most the burn card seems meaningless. However, in the true interest of statistics, the game is fundamentally differant statistically when the X's change, even by 1 or 2 or 3. Each trial is changed by at least 2 percent. Repeated hundreds to thousands of times a great variance is seen. Draw two parralell lines and they continue paralel infinitely. Place the top line 1 to 2 degrees off of the bottom line and eventually the lines are not parralell. Even if the line is just .1 or .2 the variance increases the further you get from the start. I carry a small deck of cards to run hands when i am out and i get bored, so I demonstrated over lunch how hands are played differantly without a burn card to a friend of mine that also plays poker (and is pretty good imo). The premise was that you were playing six-handed Donkey poker and everyone was seeing the flop. Out of about 20 trials only three had the same winner with or without a burn card. However, how the hand played out was completely differant. Differant players would have been competing for the pot. The remainder of the hands showed differant winners and differant ways the hands would have played out. Mind you, this was a purely imperical test and semi-bluffing and bluffing was not really taken into account, even though he and I did talk about which hands would semi-bluff. But I would really like to know if the FCP engine burns a card or not.
Man you spelled "different" wrong a whole bunch of times....I thought it was a typo at first, then it just kept on happening.
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Yeah, I thought it was a typo, too. I'm sorry, but I cannot take statistics lessons from someone who spells different with an A. I just can't do it. I would suggest running another 10,000 random hands and then reporting your findings. And then do another 10,000.

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oh when someone says i don't understand statistics and they are erroneous then the facts must come out.quick and dirty statistics are easier but in the world of minutia that is statistics there is a differance from rounding to the fifth or sixth or seventh decimal. probabilities are only about 20% of poker' date=' statistically speaking.[/b']don't even get me started about average possibilities in a seven handed game with two players left post flop and calculating odds of making a flush with four parts before the turn absent a read what the pot odds must be to warrant a smooth call.but i forgot you are always right and no else knows what they are talking about, especially when you cannot present any substantial proff that your hypothesis is correct and mine is wrong. just saying i am wrong and calling me stupid suffice to debase any arguement i am making regardless of mathmatics supporting my position.i beieve there is a phrase for you that begins with highly funtional and ends with dee dee dee.[/quoteThis is the best post in a long time. Help me understand the math behind the bolded quote above, what statistical proof do you have that poker is 20% probabilities?Please Mr Tsunnami, help me understand how the house edge (rake) changes when they don't burn a card.Help me learn how to calculate the average possibilities in a seven handed game with two players left post flop and calculating odds of making a flush with four parts before the turn absent a read what the pot odds must be to warrant a smooth call. Whatever that means.Dude, I used to calcualte my odds based on the amount of cards I don't know compared to what I need to make my hand. Help me with your new math, I must be playing wrong.
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Just a few points :a. How did we not see this coming ? He has over 40 posts; were there no early signs ?b. Remember to bookmark this now, so you won't have to search later when it's referenced and someone needs a link.c. Where is Smash ? This thread screams out for his attention.

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not to spoil the fun because there has been lots of it but do you think some people post really stupid stuff just to see us go crazy - kind of like people who go on american idol knowing they are horrible?

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not to spoil the fun because there has been lots of it but do you think some people post really stupid stuff just to see us go crazy - kind of like people who go on american idol knowing they are horrible?
Possibly. I'm going to start some "new" threads to that end.1. Online poker is rigged2. Limit HE doesn't take any skill3. Got wasted, drove home at 110mph won a $100 MTT4. Turned my free $10 into $50 billion5. I would rather move in with 78s than AA6. Online doesn't burn cards, huge house edge. (whoops.. already taken)7. Neverwin/Dreamclown are far superior players than DN.8. Listen to every bad beat I've ever suffered playing like a donk.
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man burning a card does nothing in the long run. dealers only do it to prevent cheating if u could be shown the top card. all that curve nonsense is just that
man burning a card does nothing in the long run. dealers only do it to prevent cheating if u could be shown the top card. all that curve nonsense is just that
man burning a card does nothing in the long run. dealers only do it to prevent cheating if u could be shown the top card. all that curve nonsense is just that
Submit this again, I didin't get it.
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The thing is, live poker is live poker. If one wants to simulate the live poker environment accurately then one should simulate all that is possible. If the burn card is not important then why not play seven stud with the first two cards up, the middle 3 down, and the last two up? fundamentally each player gets 3 cards down and four up. It is the same game. Isnt it?But back to the point. Each card is about 1.9231 percent. Meaning at the flop there is a 1.0231 differance. On the turn a 3.8462 differance, On the river a 5.7692 differance. X out of 39 is differant than X out of 40X out of 36 is differant than X out of 37X out of 34 is differant than X out of 36X out of 32 is differant than X out of 35Run a hundred hands yourself and tell me that the same person that would win in brick and mortar would win online without the burn cards? Tell me the hands would play the same? You cannot tell me those things and be honest. There are fundamental differances. If you are playing online to learn then don't you want to learn in the closest environment that you can to the real thing? Or would you rather adapt a feel for a differant game?Do you know about the House Edge and the fact that is what casinos running? Wether it be a 2%, .2%, or .02% percent edge per trial, the more trials the further off you are the further you go away from origin. Look at slot advertisements that say 98% payback. Simply put that is 49% for you with the house having 1% edge on trial one. Then take .5% off from 49% for trial 2 leaving a 48.5 edge for you. Roll that down and eventually you hit 0%. Sure one will win some here and there but most likely, according to reality, one will gamble those winnings away unless it is a large sum. BUT given the intrinsic nature of irregular rewards that person will be hooked on gambling chasing that big score and in the end give back more money than they won. But enough of psychology. Seriously, try it out for yourself. See for yourself how the hands play out differantly. Did any of you try out the experiment for yourself before you snapped off a response? Or did you read an article somewhere about statistically there is no differance? Try the experiment and see for yourself how the hands play out differantly. It is like mucking out of turn. It can effect how someone ahead of you calls, bets, raises, or mucks. There are fundamentals to the game that make it what it is. It is like why not talk about what you folded? Those cards are out of play what effect would they have on how others played?I do know why you don't do those things. They give an advantage to those still in the hand because it affects the way the hand is played out. Am I the only one that considers pot odds versus odds of improving or odds against my opponent(s) improving off of hands that I put them on?If I am not then you would apprecaite how much of a differance 2%,4% or 6% has on those calculations. Those that can shape a deck to whatever they desire are not foiled by a burn card or three burn cards. The truly skilled can make a deck produce whatever card they want when they want and to who they want.One is going to be in on several hey hands and a small percentage here or there is important. Ya, position play is not important either, what does it matter where you have what. Everything should be played the same in every position.
I get a very hopeless and frustrated feeling when I read something like this. It's hard to know where to start to try to explain why this is so wrong. Clearly, this is a person who is trying to think about the game and who has read a little bit of math, etc. , so I don't want to just flame him. But his misconceptions are so profound that I don't know where to start on explaining it. And I suspect that no amount of explanation would convince him anyway.But let's just say you would get different results for given starting hands no matter what was done to change the order of the next cards to come up. This is completely irrelevant. As long as the flop, turn and river are independent and "random" the online game is an accurate representation of the b&m game.
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