internet and live play are apples and oranges

[Tr1ps 0]

You hear a lot of people on just about every site, at least the ones I've been on, cry and moan about the software being fixed. People say things like "they" rig big pots and the river always gets them blah blah... You know, thats just poker, these sites really dont need to doctor anything up. This game is volatile especially no limit but ill argue the game is different.Ok, heres where im goin with this... Live play you have the chips in front of you, an opponent you observe and real cards to feel etc. It takes so much more effort to pick up those chips and physically move them around.. especially all in heh. Online you just click a button and while real money or chips are being exchanged it lacks that real physical element. While the end result is the same... lets say i just went bust at a NL 100 table ... whether I'm live or online i just lost 100 bones. The differense is in a live game all real eyes are on me and I either have to leave or crack open the wallet which honestly is embarassing... online I click another button or switch tables, again just clicking buttons. This is gonna sound a little crazy but I hope it gets the point accross... If i kill a man with a gun all I really need to do is point it at him and pull the trigger, bang! hes dead, next... thats online poker. Live poker ive got a bat or maybe just my fists and its gonna take a whole lot more effort to kill this guy... I have more time to think about it, its a whole lot messier and will take more time etc.What I'm trying to say is online poker cheats your normal person out of these very real physical interactions that take place that might cause someone to fold or bet differently. Thats why people in general feel like its rigged, impulses take over much esier and people are playing hands and doing things they wouldn't do live.granted I've just had a rough run online here and maybe im still a bit heated about it... actually heated enough to stay away for a while at least. I've had so much more success live and I'm wondering if any of you guys have had similar experiences or understand where im coming from?

[braminc 0]

i like your analogies a lot. i think they make sense. people are way way way way more impulsive online and the whole game changes because of it, esp at low limits. im starting to think the best way to play online is ultra textbook style just because of the sheer volume of mistakes made by all kinds of players, even good ones. i always find myself holding the mouse gunning for that next raise if this guy bets, cause i want to overpower him. i have to remind myself to put the mouse down, and give some time before i click. the mouse can be a very dangerous tool in the wrong hands.....lol.anyways, feels like im rambling, but i like where your thoughts are going with this, it seems relevant to some of my struggles beating the online game.

[StackOSociety 0]

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head. There is a lot more disconnect between you and the table... Live it's easy to remember what this player plays like and what not, online it's just a nickname. Plus there are more tells live, online it's mostly math based. Plus it's easier to take a beat live because you see the cards come out, online can seem like your at the mercy of the computer.

[justblaze 0]

i think you are perpetuating a myth that online poker is somehow different than live poker. Its the same. the game is the same. the odds are the same. the cards, believe it or not, are the same. What you are seeing is hands being dealt faster, accelerating the separation of skilled and unskilled players. in a casino the hands get dealt so slowly that poor players can get lucky and not lose it all back. Online, the sheer number of hands makes that difficult.

[Absolution 0]

I've found the same. I actually did very well at my first home game after having mediocre results online. My strategies were similar, but I had more time to think about my actions (no 15 second clock coming up when I have to decide if I'm going all-in for my tournament life) and it was easier to remember a read on someone when they weren't some goofy avatar or blank place holder. The rules and the game are exactly the same, non-tin-foil-cap-wearing people agree on that, but the way people play is definitely not the same. There is a lot more ego play ("I reraise your checkraise") and mindless calling - never underestimate the power of internet muscles. Also, sites have buttons for all-in and pot-bet, which make it much easier to bet large amounts on a whim. As a result, volatility goes way up and so does the luck factor, especially in multi-table tournaments.

[VegasDreams 0]

You are correct, I have been playing live for many years, online for over two now. There is a vast difference between the two, and it is not something that can be explained away by the "seeing more hands theory".I think it all has to do with the mentality of it all. You see plays made online, that you never see live, or rarely at least. Completely ridiculous calls and raises that most will not make live. Much, much easier to be an imbecile behind a screen, than to call down huge bets live with a 3 out prayer. Let me preface the following with this, (I am not stating that the sites are rigged). I will say this from many thousands of hours of table play. The flushes against boats against sets, in same hand, occur at a much higher percentage online than live. Even with taking into account you are seeing more hands, for example.If I played eight six hours per, live sessions, that would be equal to "at least" one four hour session online, at the very least. During that four hours I have seen mulitple big hand against big hand pots. Flushes, boats, str8's, sets out the wazooooooooooooooo!. Yet during the live sessions I can count on one hand the number of flushes ect, the overwhelming majority of hands are won by high pair good kicker, or a PP that holds up. Like I said, not saying they are rigged, just know what I know, reality is what it is.Even Paul Phillips once made the comment during a final table, when an unusually volatile board flopped, "Looks like an internet flop". This coming from Dot.com himself, like I said there is without doubt difference in the two.

[Absolution 0]

How can that not have anything to do with more hands per hour? More hands per hours (a lot more) + ridiculous cold-calling, limping and bluffing = a lot more beats and big hands being shown down.It's the combination of the two that do it. Most of the big hands in a live game probably win without a fight as well so you miss out on seeing them - people actually fold. In low-stakes online almost every pot goes to a showdown.

[mx957 0]

The thing that makes online poker and B&M poker different is the Anonimity. If I make a stupid all in call with my K2 offsuit and hit runner runner 2 to bust someone out...I can just sit there and proclaim how brilliant I am and nobody is around to challenge it and if they do I just turn off thier chat. In a live card room tho....you've got a whole table of people looking at you like wow...that idiot just got lucky and everyone is able to give you a ration of sh!t about it.People make stupid plays online cause they know they don't have to ever face anyone about their ignorant plays...they'll just jump over to the next table wait to get lucky again.

[Absolution 0]

In a live card room tho....you've got a whole table of people looking at you like wow...that idiot just got lucky and everyone is able to give you a ration of sh!t about it.

They berate you more you're saying? Those people are fools. I'd sit there with a SEG on my face while they coached and went tilty. Perhaps I'd need an escort to my car though after taking their money.

[AceOfSpaiDs 0]

You hear a lot of people on just about every site, at least the ones I've been on, cry and moan about the software being fixed. People say things like "they" rig big pots and the river always gets them blah blah...  You know, thats just poker, these sites really dont need to doctor anything up. This game is volatile especially no limit but ill argue the game is different.Ok, heres where im goin with this... Live play you have the chips in front of you, an opponent you observe and real cards to feel etc. It takes so much more effort to pick up those chips and physically move them around.. especially all in heh. Online you just click a button and while real money or chips are being exchanged it lacks that real physical element.  While the end result is the same... lets say i just went bust at a NL 100 table ... whether I'm live or online i just lost 100 bones. The differense is in a live game all real eyes are on me and I either have to leave or crack open the wallet which honestly is embarassing... online I click another button or switch tables, again just clicking buttons.  This is gonna sound a little crazy but I hope it gets the point accross... If i kill a man with a gun all I really need to do is point it at him and pull the trigger, bang! hes dead, next... thats online poker. Live poker ive got a bat or maybe just my fists and its gonna take a whole lot more effort to kill this guy... I have more time to think about it, its a whole lot messier and will take more time etc.What I'm trying to say is online poker cheats your normal person out of these very real physical interactions that take place that might cause someone to fold or bet differently. Thats why people in general feel like its rigged, impulses take over much esier and people are playing hands and doing things they wouldn't do live.granted I've just had a rough run online here and maybe im still a bit heated about it... actually heated enough to stay away for a while at least. I've had so much more success live and I'm wondering if any of you guys have had similar experiences or understand where im coming from?

hate to be a d!ck man, but every single point you've made is already known. Online poker sees at least 3x as many hands as live, we all know this. And we know sites aren't rigged, and its harder to bluff online. I too have had more success live than online, but I still play online, so do all of the kids who b!tch & moan 24/7 about how everything is so rigged.

[Ender142 0]

I dont know about the whole rigged thing, but i can say that i have MUCH more of an edge in live games than by playing online. I think the reasons are obvious, so i wont sit here and explain them. But its just frustrating sometimes when im sitting there craving information that i know i would have if i was playing live in order to make a descision. Poeple show their cards FAR more in live poker, for example, so just based on that alone you already get 3 or 4 times more information than you do online.As far as the "rigged" argument, i do have to say that after only playing for a couple days now online, i have seen WAY more huge hands than i ever have in live games. Since you do see more hands in a shorter amount of time online, to make a compairison i would say that those 2 days online equal about 2 weeks of live play for me. In that time online, i have already been delt 1 straight flush, 3 quads, 2 aces full (one with poket aces and one with big slick), numerous full houses, and far too many flushes to count. Getting hands like this in 2 weeks of live play would be highly unusual. I have never seen so many 4 card flushes or straights on the board than what i have witnessed in online play. But, maybe this was just a fluke or something.... :?

[Smasharoo 0]

I wish someone would explain why people play so much worse live at almost any limit than online.

[VegasDreams 0]

It is not all about number of hands versus live. Like I said 8 BM sessions and 1 online session. Forget people staying with crap more often and sucking out online. Take just the boards that come up online, the four flushes, four str8's, quad and boat boards, in comparison to live play. This eliminates the bad play aspect. If you have logged any sort of real time hours or in my case years of BM play you know what I am talking about.That is why I made the Paul Phillips reference, this is a very intelligent man, in reference to numbers, poker, internet. When that flop brought a flush as well as str8 possibility to the forefront his immediate comment was "looks like an internet flop". I am not saying the sites are rigged for a particular winner. Am I saying the prog may very well be geared toward action, action, action, you bet.If you have played any length of time live and played smart/solid poker. Then you know you can go upwards of 45 mins plus without even seeing a flop. Now do you think that this would be conducive to action/thrills that most are looking for when first coming to an internet site to play.Or do you think that those whom are building the sites are really wanting it to be just like "live" play? Or maybe, just maybe they want it to be as exciting and over the top as possible, from a marketing and hope you stay mentality. Thus they have "built in" a "Juice" factor, a bit of "sizzle" if you will. Thus ensuring their site is not out foxed by the next, or that their clientele base does not leave in search of more fireworks and adrenaline pump elsewhere?Food for thought, it would explain the absolutely high percentage of monster boards that hit much too frequently online versus live. Like I said, I am not saying it is rigged to allow a particular player to win. I am saying that the two are not the same.

[Smasharoo 0]

his immediate comment was "looks like an internet flop"He was joking.You people kill me.

[justblaze 0]

the point you are missing is there are no mythic monster boards. the boards, over hundreds of thousands of hands documented by poker tracker, are statistically accurate to the frequency with which they should occur. Ive seen ridiculous board after ridiculous board in live play, and have logged online sessions where TPTK was a monster for hours on end. Paul phillips made that comment as a tongue in cheek reference to his profession. irony is lost on the masses...

[Awful 0]

don't forget selection bias, too. You don't remember the 4.5 times your AA beats KK, you remember the 1 time in 25 when the king that beats you waits to the river to come out. You don't remember the 8-4-2 rainbow board, you remember when it comes down AQT of hearts. You see so many hands so fast that your "monster boards" are just a result of the rest of the boards you see being a blur of forgettability.

[Tr1ps 0]

There is something to say about selection bias... the rounders quote comes to mind when Damon says something to the effect that you never remember the good hands or when things go your way, its the bad beats that stick with you... My point here is those bad beats are compounded by the disconnect and anonimty that online poker is. The juice is not in the software its in our heads and index fingers. I think I'm going to start calling online poker what it is... knee jerk poker. I've been playing online for 2 years now and i'm way up lifetime but the game just isnt the same... I was in vegas and played NL 100 almost exlusively at excalibur for 4 days, I bought in once and never looked back... plenty of fish swimming around they just werent calling my AA preflop raise with 10 5 suited and 2 pairing me.... no more knee jerk poker for me.

[braminc 0]

vegas, i hate to say it, but your i lost some respect for you cause of your last two posts. smash is right, phillips was JOKING. whether you like it or not, you ARE claiming that online game is rigged by saying it alters the deal to promote action. this is just not the case. anything, and i mean ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN IN THE SHORT TERM AND IT CANNOT BE PROVEN TO BE ILLEGITIMATE.matter of fact, if everything happened normal, like you played one hand, then folded 9, then played one, then fold12, and so on, and you hit like 30 percent of you flops or whatever.....if everything happened averagely than i would be MORE suspicious that the game wasnt random. random means EVERYTHING GOES, ANYTHING GOES!!

[VegasDreams 0]

Alright, alright............I was attempting to be ironic as well, to be a satirist if you will with the two previous post. I have been taken much too seriously on them obviously. Yes I know Phillips was being "tongue in cheek", lol. Having a bit of fun, guess I was a tad too convincing in my arguements. Ah well, I enjoyed the laugh it generated anyway.

[Downstream 0]

just kiddingI have hardly played live, but I am considering it. I have to say, I always feel like there are too many outrageous flops, turns and especially rivers in online poker. But I have convinced myself that this is just my perceptions, not reality. I have now tripled my $30 invested initially, so I am pretty sure its not rigged. It seems that you would not be able to win consistently with things being rigged for action. Also, I think that it might take an inordinate amount of computer power to rig a site for action. Just think of all the variables involved in tracking thousands of people's play to make sure no one is getting more rigged bad beats than others. If just a few players tracked their hands over say 1000 hands or more, they would see something fishy and leave the site. They would then publish it at a forum like this and the site's reputation would be trashed. Thats a risk I dont think a poker site would take, especially with all the easy money they make raking legit tables all day.If someone has data that shows a bias, publish it here, then I will eat my hat .The way I see it, when many stay in to the end, there are FH, straight and flush opportunities that people will chase no matter what. We have all seen straights made on someone holding 3 7 or something like that. Most online players hardly care that they lost $50 in 4 hours. Its gambling to them, the rush of the big pot outweighs calling 28 other hands to the river. Taking advantage of that mentality to make some money is what I am trying to do.Of course, if I was really smart, I would just hire 10 IT guys, offshore a poker site and rake in thousands and thousands every day.

[justblaze 0]

just kiddingI have hardly played live, but I am considering it.  I have to say, I always feel like there are too many outrageous flops, turns and especially rivers in online poker.  But I have convinced myself that this is just my perceptions, not reality.  I have now tripled my $30 invested initially, so I am pretty sure its not rigged.  It seems that you would not be able to win consistently with things being rigged for action.  Also, I think that it might take an inordinate amount of computer power to rig a site for action.  Just think of all the variables involved in tracking thousands of people's play to make sure no one is getting more rigged bad beats than others.  If just a few players tracked their hands over say 1000 hands or more, they would see something fishy and leave the site.  They would then publish it at a forum like this and the site's reputation would be trashed.  Thats a risk I dont think a poker site would take, especially with all the easy money they make raking legit tables all day.If someone has data that shows a bias, publish it here, then I will eat my hat .The way I see it, when many stay in to the end, there are FH, straight and flush opportunities that people will chase no matter what.  We have all seen straights made on someone holding 3 7 or something like that.  Most online players hardly care that they lost $50 in 4 hours.  Its gambling to them,  the rush of the big pot outweighs calling 28 other hands to the river.  Taking advantage of that mentality to make some money is what I am trying to do.Of course, if I was really smart, I would just hire 10 IT guys, offshore a poker site and rake in thousands and thousands every day.

a few things. while i support the 'its not rigged' argument, tripling 30$ is not proof of anything. Also 1000 hands is nothing. People have tracked hundreds of thousands of hands and the results have all been acceptable.

[Smasharoo 0]

I'm closing in on 200,000 hands at Party and everything's just fine.Once you buy a good patter mapper to tell you when the action flops are coming, you can't lose.

[justblaze 0]

I'm closing in on 200,000 hands at Party and everything's just fine.Once you buy a good patter mapper to tell you when the action flops are coming, you can't lose.

smash, careful now. some people are gonna take that seriously.

[Fphillips 0]

I believe it is in fact perception vs reality.