'05 colts the best ever?

[KowboyKoop 0]

assuming they run the table from sunday to super bowl sunday, will they be considered the best ever?who do you think is the best team ever? the 49er teams of my youth with montana were among the best i have ever seen. obviously, i cant go back any further than that

No.And don't worry, they are losing tomorrow.

You honestly think David Garrard can lead the Jags to victory tomorrow? BAHAHAHAHAHA.......wager on that?

how many points did INDY score on Jacksonville AT INDIANAPOLIS in their last game???? And before you say the generic excuse "Indy's offense was struggling at that time...," they were struggling because Jacksonville's D MADE them struggle.....it ain't like Manning and Harrison and James had to "get used to each other" or anything.....I ain't saying Garrard is going to throw for 4 TDs, but I think Jacksonville wins a 13-10 ish, ballgame. Upsets happen all the time, yet so few have the balls to pick them.

[mbreon 0]

all I said was that, this year, Kennison is better than Moss. Moss is playing hurt, yeah, I know, but he seems to be "hurt" alot. I told you he wasn't a good team player and would hurt the team A LONG time ago..and now that is exactly what is happening.Also, yeah, keep sleeping on Kennison and Dante Hall, and our TE Tony Gonzalez, you know, the best TE in football...we'll just keep on being one of the best (if not the best) offense in the NFL, just like we have been the past four years.....

If by better, you mean that Kennison's stats are better, than you would be correct. There really is no question as to who the better receiver is though. Personally, I always thought Randy Moss was a curse to whatever team has him, but he's still one of the top 5 receivers in football, even with this off year he's having now.T-Gon has passed the torch to Antonio Gates as well. Gates' numbers are outstanding for a TE. Where has TGon been all year? He's 200 some yards and 6 TDs behind Gates as we speak.....TGon was the most dominant TE for years, but it's Gates' time to shine now. This year ices it.Even though I personally cannot stand the Chiefs, I will say this much. Larry Johnson is a top 5 running back in the NFL, and will continue to be for years (barring a major injury). Period. He has kept the team going while Trent Green is having an awful year.

[teneight 1]

I told you he wasn't a good team player and would hurt the team A LONG time ago..and now that is exactly what is happening

please, moss has been a great team player this year. have you heard any news on moss mouthing off? or getting in trouble in the locker room? nokennison isnt even 10X the wr Moss is. Moss has been hurt 2 seasons..big deal. he will come back..trust mehow is he hurting the team again?? because he's hurt? nope..sorrythere you go again, making comments which make you look like a foolgonzales isnt the best TE in the league, please..he isnt top 5 in the league as of now. please don't get me started with hall. he is only good for KR/PR.

[teneight 1]

i do have to agree, larry johnson is and will be a monster RB for years to come. Other than that, i don't see KC's offense been any good without him. WR's are QB are average. teneight

[mbreon 0]

how many points did INDY score on Jacksonville AT INDIANAPOLIS in their last game???? And before you say the generic excuse "Indy's offense was struggling at that time...," they were struggling because Jacksonville's D MADE them struggle.....it ain't like Manning and Harrison and James had to "get used to each other" or anything.....I ain't saying Garrard is going to throw for 4 TDs, but I think Jacksonville wins a 13-10 ish, ballgame. Upsets happen all the time, yet so few have the balls to pick them.

You don't have to tell me about the game. I was there. No matter if you think that the Indy offense struggling line is a generic excuse or not, because it's true. Yes they have played together for years but that doesn't mean that they play perfectly every game. I have respect for Jacksonville, and they do have a great D, but Indy is too much for them right now, especially without Leftwich. Garrard simply doesn't have enouhg NFL experience to handle the pressure that Indy's D will put on them. Nothing against Jacksonville, they are a good team, but they won't win tomorrow.Highly doubtful that Jacksonville can hold Indy to 10 points either, though of course anything is possible. Indy is averaging 37 points per game over their last 7. And yes I realize two of those games were against Houston and one against the Rams, but that list also includes the Bengals and the Steelers. Whether you like them or not, it's hard to deny that Indy's offense is clicking very well right now.I have the Colts at 30-10 for tomorrow. But it should be a good game either way.

[mbreon 0]

i do have to agree, larry johnson is and will be a monster RB for years to come. Other than that, i don't see KC's offense been any good without him. WR's are QB are average. teneight

I do like Trent Green a lot too....he's an Indiana University alumni, as am I. There aren't too many IU players in the pros, so I have to root for the few that are. He's thrown 0 TDs in 4 different games this year, and only 4 multi TD games, which shouldn't be for an offense with that much potential. At least now Larry Johnson will take a lot of pressure off of him. Next year with some more defense improvement and Larry Johnson tearing it up again, I think the Chiefs will be a top team in the AFC.

[mbreon 0]

please, moss has been a great team player this year. have you heard any news on moss mouthing off? or getting in trouble in the locker room? nokennison isnt even 10X the wr Moss is. Moss has been hurt 2 seasons..big deal. he will come back..trust mehow is he hurting the team again?? because he's hurt? nope..sorrythere you go again, making comments which make you look like a foolgonzales isnt the best TE in the league, please..he isnt top 5 in the league as of now. please don't get me started with hall. he is only good for KR/PR.

Moss has done much better keeping his attitude under control. He isn't helping to win games for Oakland either....you need to be able to count on Moss to make big plays, the same way that you can count on TO. Lucky for Oakland that they have found a gem with LaMont Jordan, who is a monster (very happy to have drafted him my fantasy league too)...... I think Oakland has really been a disappointment this year. A team with that much offensive talent shouldn't be 4-8. Finding a replacement for Kerry Collins has to be priority #1 for them next year.And I mean come on, he doesn't have great numbers this year, but TGon is still one of the 2 best tight ends in football, hands down. If you were building an NFL team, and could have any TE besides Gates, you are telling me that you wouldnt take TGon? There's no way I would take McMichael, Dallas Clark, Heap, L.J. Smith or Heath Miller over him. An argument could be made for Jason Witten.

[KowboyKoop 0]

all I said was that, this year, Kennison is better than Moss. Moss is playing hurt, yeah, I know, but he seems to be "hurt" alot. I told you he wasn't a good team player and would hurt the team A LONG time ago..and now that is exactly what is happening.Also, yeah, keep sleeping on Kennison and Dante Hall, and our TE Tony Gonzalez, you know, the best TE in football...we'll just keep on being one of the best (if not the best) offense in the NFL, just like we have been the past four years.....

If by better, you mean that Kennison's stats are better, than you would be correct. There really is no question as to who the better receiver is though. Personally, I always thought Randy Moss was a curse to whatever team has him, but he's still one of the top 5 receivers in football, even with this off year he's having now.T-Gon has passed the torch to Antonio Gates as well. Gates' numbers are outstanding for a TE. Where has TGon been all year? He's 200 some yards and 6 TDs behind Gates as we speak.....TGon was the most dominant TE for years, but it's Gates' time to shine now. This year ices it.Even though I personally cannot stand the Chiefs, I will say this much. Larry Johnson is a top 5 running back in the NFL, and will continue to be for years (barring a major injury). Period. He has kept the team going while Trent Green is having an awful year.

A. Yes, that is exactly what I mean..Kennison has been better for KC THIS YEAR then Moss has been for OAK. Moss is more talented, sure, but he always seems to be hurt or not giving 100 percent effort, and numerous other things.B. You say Gates is better than T-GON??? No, not yet. Gates supposedly had a "breakout" year last year....well, let me ask you this. Who led the NFL is catches last year? No, not Tight Ends, of ALL RECEIVERS!! Yeah, that'd be Tony Gonzalez. Gonzalez had nearly 300 more yards receiving than Gates last year. Yeah, you're right, T-Gon is fading.....mmm, not quite. As for this year, yeah, Gates is having a better year. But it is only ONE year, Gonzalez has been the dominant TE in the league for 6 or 7 years now....and with out two tackles being injured for good portions of the year (one being Hall of Famer Willie Roaf..), Gonzalez has had to block a TON more than usual, so that is why he hasn't had quite as good of a year. This is NOT taking away from Gates, he is a phenom, but so is Gonzalez...he's only 29 years old, he has got 4-6 GREAT years left...C. Yes, Larry Johnson has been the top RB in the league the past 5-6 games, and COULD be one of the best in the league for a while. D. TRENT GREEN IS HAVING AN AWFUL YEAR?!??!?!?!?!? WHAT!??!?!7th in the league in completions (240)9th in the league in completion percentage (62.7 %)6th in the league in yards (2947)7th in the league in YPA (7.7)18th in the league in TD (13) (yes, in this category, he is having a bit of a down year)13th in the league in INTs (9) (yes, in this category, he is having a bit of a down year...but not a really high number at all)10th in the league in QB rating (87.9)that is a pretty good "down" year if you ask me...Trent Green is a very underrated QB, leader of one of the best offenses in the league the past few years

[KowboyKoop 0]

I told you he wasn't a good team player and would hurt the team A LONG time ago..and now that is exactly what is happening

please, moss has been a great team player this year. have you heard any news on moss mouthing off? or getting in trouble in the locker room? nokennison isnt even 10X the wr Moss is. Moss has been hurt 2 seasons..big deal. he will come back..trust mehow is he hurting the team again?? because he's hurt? nope..sorrythere you go again, making comments which make you look like a foolgonzales isnt the best TE in the league, please..he isnt top 5 in the league as of now. please don't get me started with hall. he is only good for KR/PR.

A. uh...the team he was supposed to "restore to glory" is 4-8 and he is constantly hurt....not good.B. Gonzalez isn't a top 5 TE in the league??? please tell me the 5 TE's who are better, and please give me ONE active tight end who has had a better career than T-Gonzalez......

[KowboyKoop 0]

how many points did INDY score on Jacksonville AT INDIANAPOLIS in their last game???? And before you say the generic excuse "Indy's offense was struggling at that time...," they were struggling because Jacksonville's D MADE them struggle.....it ain't like Manning and Harrison and James had to "get used to each other" or anything.....I ain't saying Garrard is going to throw for 4 TDs, but I think Jacksonville wins a 13-10 ish, ballgame. Upsets happen all the time, yet so few have the balls to pick them.

You don't have to tell me about the game. I was there. No matter if you think that the Indy offense struggling line is a generic excuse or not, because it's true. Yes they have played together for years but that doesn't mean that they play perfectly every game. I have respect for Jacksonville, and they do have a great D, but Indy is too much for them right now, especially without Leftwich. Garrard simply doesn't have enouhg NFL experience to handle the pressure that Indy's D will put on them. Nothing against Jacksonville, they are a good team, but they won't win tomorrow.Highly doubtful that Jacksonville can hold Indy to 10 points either, though of course anything is possible. Indy is averaging 37 points per game over their last 7. And yes I realize two of those games were against Houston and one against the Rams, but that list also includes the Bengals and the Steelers. Whether you like them or not, it's hard to deny that Indy's offense is clicking very well right now.I have the Colts at 30-10 for tomorrow. But it should be a good game either way.

noone is saying INDY's offense isn't powerful, however, like you said, anything can happen, and I think it will happen. I am not saying Jacksonville is a better team than INDY, but I am saying the upset is going to happen

[KowboyKoop 0]

i do have to agree, larry johnson is and will be a monster RB for years to come. Other than that, i don't see KC's offense been any good without him. WR's are QB are average. teneight

I do like Trent Green a lot too....he's an Indiana University alumni, as am I. There aren't too many IU players in the pros, so I have to root for the few that are. He's thrown 0 TDs in 4 different games this year, and only 4 multi TD games, which shouldn't be for an offense with that much potential. At least now Larry Johnson will take a lot of pressure off of him. Next year with some more defense improvement and Larry Johnson tearing it up again, I think the Chiefs will be a top team in the AFC.

I can agree with much of this. Green hasn't had as good a year as his past few, but I think he is FAR from having an "awful" year...Aaron Brooks is having an "awful" year....Joey Harringto is having an "awful" year, not Green, he is having "good" year, but not a great year like the past few.Also, KC's defense is very quietly becoming pretty good. Jared Allen rushing the passer every game, Derrick Johnson and Kawika Mitchell playing VERY well at LB, and both are pretty young, and Greg Wesly and Eric Warfield are playing pretty good and patrick Surtain has played well when healthy, there is a reason Brady and Plummer struggled so much at times against our 'D,' it is improving rapidly. It isn't a Top 10 defense yet (the rushing D, however, is top 10 right now..), they are getting there and could be next year...and our offense ain't losing THAT much next year...especially with LJ.

[mbreon 0]

A. Yes, that is exactly what I mean..Kennison has been better for KC THIS YEAR then Moss has been for OAK. Moss is more talented, sure, but he always seems to be hurt or not giving 100 percent effort, and numerous other things.B. You say Gates is better than T-GON??? No, not yet. Gates supposedly had a "breakout" year last year....well, let me ask you this. Who led the NFL is catches last year? No, not Tight Ends, of ALL RECEIVERS!! Yeah, that'd be Tony Gonzalez. Gonzalez had nearly 300 more yards receiving than Gates last year. Yeah, you're right, T-Gon is fading.....mmm, not quite. As for this year, yeah, Gates is having a better year. But it is only ONE year, Gonzalez has been the dominant TE in the league for 6 or 7 years now....and with out two tackles being injured for good portions of the year (one being Hall of Famer Willie Roaf..), Gonzalez has had to block a TON more than usual, so that is why he hasn't had quite as good of a year. This is NOT taking away from Gates, he is a phenom, but so is Gonzalez...he's only 29 years old, he has got 4-6 GREAT years left...C. Yes, Larry Johnson has been the top RB in the league the past 5-6 games, and COULD be one of the best in the league for a while. D. TRENT GREEN IS HAVING AN AWFUL YEAR?!??!?!?!?!? WHAT!??!?!7th in the league in completions (240)9th in the league in completion percentage (62.7 %)6th in the league in yards (2947)7th in the league in YPA (7.7)18th in the league in TD (13) (yes, in this category, he is having a bit of a down year)13th in the league in INTs (9) (yes, in this category, he is having a bit of a down year...but not a really high number at all)10th in the league in QB rating (87.9)that is a pretty good "down" year if you ask me...Trent Green is a very underrated QB, leader of one of the best offenses in the league the past few years

Some good points there....let me clarify on I few things I meant.....Kennison's numbers are better, but if you could pick Kennison or Moss to be on your team, would you really take Kennison? Kennison is capable of big games, and has had some, but Moss has big-play abilities that only a few WRs in the league are capable of. When Moss is 100% healthy and focused, he is still a top 5 WR. The problem is getting him to be both of those things.Yes, I think Gates is the new superstar of the TE position. I do realize the numbers from last year, but that was last year. I'm talking about right now. TGon is suffering from the same fate Witten is over in Dallas, which is having to block more and not being the focal point of the passing attack as much. Gates is just a monster. It wasn't like he was a slouch either last year, with close to 1000 yards and 13 scores. He is a great athlete and has great hands. I have lots of respect for TGon though, and still think he is right up there. My personal preferences just go with Gates though.....I don't think that Larry Johnson could be one of the best RBs in football, I think that he will be. He is a great running back. With Priest out of the picture, LJ has gotten his chance to shine and he has responded. The more important thing is that KC is winning games with him in there. He's easily a first round pick in fantasy leagues next year, and most likely for many years to come.Yes, this is a huge letdown year for Trent Green. After throwing for 4600 yards and 27 TDs last year, there really was no compelling reason not to expect the same this year. His yards numbers are fine, but the TDs and INTs are not good for him. There is still plenty of football left to play this year, but 13 TDs from him thus far is a major disappointment. That O-line and Larry are too good for him not to be producing more. He has strung together a couple of decent games in a row, so he could be due for a good 2nd half of the season. I like Trent a lot as well, as long as he can cut down on his mistakes, he will be a great QB.

[KowboyKoop 0]

please, moss has been a great team player this year. have you heard any news on moss mouthing off? or getting in trouble in the locker room? nokennison isnt even 10X the wr Moss is. Moss has been hurt 2 seasons..big deal. he will come back..trust mehow is he hurting the team again?? because he's hurt? nope..sorrythere you go again, making comments which make you look like a foolgonzales isnt the best TE in the league, please..he isnt top 5 in the league as of now. please don't get me started with hall. he is only good for KR/PR.

Moss has done much better keeping his attitude under control. He isn't helping to win games for Oakland either....you need to be able to count on Moss to make big plays, the same way that you can count on TO. Lucky for Oakland that they have found a gem with LaMont Jordan, who is a monster (very happy to have drafted him my fantasy league too)...... I think Oakland has really been a disappointment this year. A team with that much offensive talent shouldn't be 4-8. Finding a replacement for Kerry Collins has to be priority #1 for them next year.And I mean come on, he doesn't have great numbers this year, but TGon is still one of the 2 best tight ends in football, hands down. If you were building an NFL team, and could have any TE besides Gates, you are telling me that you wouldnt take TGon? There's no way I would take McMichael, Dallas Clark, Heap, L.J. Smith or Heath Miller over him. An argument could be made for Jason Witten.

About Oakland, I agree for the most part.....neither of the past two years have been good at all.About Tony Gonzalez...even saying Gates is better is outrageous right now...this is the FIRST year that Gates has outperformed Gonzalez. Sure, he is great, but Gonzales LED THE LEAGUE in catches last year, had been THE tight end in football for the past 6 years or so, and is only 29 years old..Gates had a good year last year, and is having a good year this year. Gonzalez had alot more catches and yards than Gates last year (Gates did have more TDs, good for him..), and Gates has more this year. That is great, Gates is going to have a great career, but let's hold off on the "Gates is a better tight end" than Gonzalez argument for now...let's wait a couple years. Everyone was going nuts in Jeremy Shockey's first year about how he was better than TG (everyone in the media was ALREADY calling him the best TE in football), and where has he gone.....not saying Gates will surely do the same thing, Gates is a phenom no doubt, but let him do it for a few years first, because TG has already been a phenom for 6 or so years now and still has a good 4-6 left....

[mbreon 0]

noone is saying INDY's offense isn't powerful, however, like you said, anything can happen, and I think it will happen. I am not saying Jacksonville is a better team than INDY, but I am saying the upset is going to happen

True, anything can happen. I don't know if you ever wager on sports, but I would do a friendly bet with you on who wins the game. If you are interested, PM me. I am not worried about this game too much, mainly because of Garrard. If it was a healthy Leftwich playing, I would be much more worried. The game that really worries me as a Colt fan is the upcoming Colts/Seahawks game. That should be a great game.

[KowboyKoop 0]

A. Yes, that is exactly what I mean..Kennison has been better for KC THIS YEAR then Moss has been for OAK. Moss is more talented, sure, but he always seems to be hurt or not giving 100 percent effort, and numerous other things.B. You say Gates is better than T-GON??? No, not yet. Gates supposedly had a "breakout" year last year....well, let me ask you this. Who led the NFL is catches last year? No, not Tight Ends, of ALL RECEIVERS!! Yeah, that'd be Tony Gonzalez. Gonzalez had nearly 300 more yards receiving than Gates last year. Yeah, you're right, T-Gon is fading.....mmm, not quite. As for this year, yeah, Gates is having a better year. But it is only ONE year, Gonzalez has been the dominant TE in the league for 6 or 7 years now....and with out two tackles being injured for good portions of the year (one being Hall of Famer Willie Roaf..), Gonzalez has had to block a TON more than usual, so that is why he hasn't had quite as good of a year. This is NOT taking away from Gates, he is a phenom, but so is Gonzalez...he's only 29 years old, he has got 4-6 GREAT years left...C. Yes, Larry Johnson has been the top RB in the league the past 5-6 games, and COULD be one of the best in the league for a while. D. TRENT GREEN IS HAVING AN AWFUL YEAR?!??!?!?!?!? WHAT!??!?!7th in the league in completions (240)9th in the league in completion percentage (62.7 %)6th in the league in yards (2947)7th in the league in YPA (7.7)18th in the league in TD (13) (yes, in this category, he is having a bit of a down year)13th in the league in INTs (9) (yes, in this category, he is having a bit of a down year...but not a really high number at all)10th in the league in QB rating (87.9)that is a pretty good "down" year if you ask me...Trent Green is a very underrated QB, leader of one of the best offenses in the league the past few years

Some good points there....let me clarify on I few things I meant.....Kennison's numbers are better, but if you could pick Kennison or Moss to be on your team, would you really take Kennison? Kennison is capable of big games, and has had some, but Moss has big-play abilities that only a few WRs in the league are capable of. When Moss is 100% healthy and focused, he is still a top 5 WR. The problem is getting him to be both of those things.Yes, I agree with that. My original statement/point was NOT that Kennison was a better receiver, flat-out, than Moss, it was that Kennison is having a better year AND helping his team win, which Moss is not doing and hasn't really done that often. That is all. IF Moss is healthy and not distracted and focuses on being a good team player, he is one of the best in the league, but those seem to be pretty big 'IF's' every year...Yes, I think Gates is the new superstar of the TE position. I do realize the numbers from last year, but that was last year. I'm talking about right now. TGon is suffering from the same fate Witten is over in Dallas, which is having to block more and not being the focal point of the passing attack as much. Gates is just a monster. It wasn't like he was a slouch either last year, with close to 1000 yards and 13 scores. He is a great athlete and has great hands. I have lots of respect for TGon though, and still think he is right up there. My personal preferences just go with Gates though.....Yes, Gates is having a better year, for the reasons that A. TG has to block more than ever, and B. Gates is a phenom. No doubt, Gates is awesome and is the best playing the best of any TE in football at this moment, and is younger, so has a brighter future. Sure. But TG is still the best TE in football until Gates proves he can outperform all other TE's for a few years in a row...so far, he is working on year #1, which is great, but who is to say Gates won't have to block a ton more next year b/c of unexpected injuries to the O-line, causing his numbers to go down (which is happening to TG this year..). That is all. Gates will be great, but will he be better than TG?? Maybe, or maybe not. TG has been the best by far for 6-7 years now, Gates has been the best for 2/3 of a season...thus, he isn't THE best TE in football quite yet.I don't think that Larry Johnson could be one of the best RBs in football, I think that he will be. He is a great running back. With Priest out of the picture, LJ has gotten his chance to shine and he has responded. The more important thing is that KC is winning games with him in there. He's easily a first round pick in fantasy leagues next year, and most likely for many years to come.Well, I agree that barring unforseen circumstances, LJ will be one of the best in the league. I almost have no doubt, he did it at the end of last year when he finally got a chance, and is doing it agains this year. What he did to supposedly #1 rushing 'D' in the league last year was special, and he could do it for a long time.Yes, this is a huge letdown year for Trent Green. After throwing for 4600 yards and 27 TDs last year, there really was no compelling reason not to expect the same this year. His yards numbers are fine, but the TDs and INTs are not good for him. There is still plenty of football left to play this year, but 13 TDs from him thus far is a major disappointment. That O-line and Larry are too good for him not to be producing more. He has strung together a couple of decent games in a row, so he could be due for a good 2nd half of the season. I like Trent a lot as well, as long as he can cut down on his mistakes, he will be a great QB.Sure, it has been a "down" year for him, but it hasn't been an "awful" year for him, which is the word you first used. That is all I was arguing against, that he hasn't been "awful." You say his O-line is too good, but the O-line has only been healthy for the past 3 games, before that, All-Universe lineman Willie Roaf has either been out or playing with a hurt hamstring, and a couple other linemen have been banged up, until the last three games. So early on, TG was pressured a lot more than usual, so considering that, his numbers could be a lot worse. Yes, he hasn't had as good of a year as he is capable of having, sure, but it hasn't been "awful." That is all.

[KowboyKoop 0]

noone is saying INDY's offense isn't powerful, however, like you said, anything can happen, and I think it will happen. I am not saying Jacksonville is a better team than INDY, but I am saying the upset is going to happen

True, anything can happen. I don't know if you ever wager on sports, but I would do a friendly bet with you on who wins the game. If you are interested, PM me. I am not worried about this game too much, mainly because of Garrard. If it was a healthy Leftwich playing, I would be much more worried. The game that really worries me as a Colt fan is the upcoming Colts/Seahawks game. That should be a great game.

I don't wager on sports.

[mbreon 0]

Yes Gonzalez had more catches and yards, but Gates had 6 more TDs. In traditional fantasy leagues last year, Gates actually had more points by season's end than T-Gon (narrowly, by 7 or 8 points, in leagues where receiving TDs are 6 pts and 10 rec yds are 1 pt). Who is more valuable to their team? Who knows. Are they the two best in the league? Easily. Just because the popular media thinks one way doesn't mean I will as well. Everyone loved Shockey but in my mind he hasn't done much to earn the hype until this year. I had very little respect for Shockey in his first couple years, but he is really maturing and you can tell he loves the game. I would have to put Shockey as the 3rd best TE in the game right now, with Witten 4th and Heap 5th. My sleeper for the next few years is Ben Watson from NE, who could dominate if Brady looked for him consistently (which he cant seem to do with any receiver). We agree to disagree, and we can leave it at that. This was originally a thread about the Colts and their season, so we should give it a chance to drift back towards that......alright I'm off to play some poker.

[KowboyKoop 0]

Yes Gonzalez had more catches and yards, but Gates had 6 more TDs. In traditional fantasy leagues last year, Gates actually had more points by season's end than T-Gon (narrowly, by 7 or 8 points, in leagues where receiving TDs are 6 pts and 10 rec yds are 1 pt). Who is more valuable to their team? Who knows. Are they the two best in the league? Easily. Just because the popular media thinks one way doesn't mean I will as well. Everyone loved Shockey but in my mind he hasn't done much to earn the hype until this year. I had very little respect for Shockey in his first couple years, but he is really maturing and you can tell he loves the game. I would have to put Shockey as the 3rd best TE in the game right now, with Witten 4th and Heap 5th. My sleeper for the next few years is Ben Watson from NE, who could dominate if Brady looked for him consistently (which he cant seem to do with any receiver). We agree to disagree, and we can leave it at that. This was originally a thread about the Colts and their season, so we should give it a chance to drift back towards that......alright I'm off to play some poker.

well, it seems like you are going by which TE is having a better fantasy year....and yeah, Gates is probaly having that this year and last year ( I don't play fantasy football), but there is alot more to it than that.....fact is, this is the FIRST year that TG won't have the best year for a TE in the past 6 or 7 years.....Gates needs a streak like that to be considered THE best TE in the league....being the best for one year doesn't cut it in terms of who is the overall best in the league...otherwise Maurice Clarett would be one of the best running backs in college football in the past few years.....and NOONE would really think that.

[TheIceman05 0]

fact is, this is the FIRST year that TG won't have the best year for a TE in the past 6 or 7 years.....Gates needs a streak like that to be considered THE best TE in the league....being the best for one year doesn't cut it in terms of who is the overall best in the league

If you were looking for a tight-end to fill a roster spot on your team next year, who would it be? Gates or Gonzales?How about for the next 3 years?I dunno about you, but I think that's a pretty choice. Gonzales is one of the 2 or 3 best tightends in history (Kellen Winslow, Sr.), and I got a chance to see him play a lot when I lived in Kansas City, so I have tons of respect for the man.But he's on the downside of his career, and Gates is the best tight-end in football right now, ahead of Gonzales. Shockey's third, Heap's 4th, and Witten's 5th.Ice

[teneight 1]

dont forget about Cooley who is having a nice season over in Washington

[KowboyKoop 0]

fact is, this is the FIRST year that TG won't have the best year for a TE in the past 6 or 7 years.....Gates needs a streak like that to be considered THE best TE in the league....being the best for one year doesn't cut it in terms of who is the overall best in the league

If you were looking for a tight-end to fill a roster spot on your team next year, who would it be? Gates or Gonzales?How about for the next 3 years?I dunno about you, but I think that's a pretty choice. Gonzales is one of the 2 or 3 best tightends in history (Kellen Winslow, Sr.), and I got a chance to see him play a lot when I lived in Kansas City, so I have tons of respect for the man.But he's on the downside of his career, and Gates is the best tight-end in football right now, ahead of Gonzales. Shockey's third, Heap's 4th, and Witten's 5th.Ice

I'd pick LJ to be my running back right now over Curtis Martin and Jerome Bettis. Does that mean that IN THE BIG PICTURE, WHICH IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT, that LJ is a better running back than Curtis Martin and Jerome Bettis?? No. He is playing better right now, yeah, and Gates is playing better right now that Gonzalez, yes, but that doesn't mean you can just sit back and say "gates is better than Gonzalez." That is all I am saying, we aren't disagreeing, we are just talking about different things. You guys are saying that right now, Gates is playing better than Gonzalez. That is true.I am saying that if you step back right now and look at the big picture, you still have to say Gonzalez is better b/c he has done it longer and Gates hasn't even had ONE complete year better than Gonzalez. That is all.Those are two different things, and I think they are both correct, as do most everybody else, probably.Also, Gonzalez is on the "downside" of his career???? Wow...how incorrect can you be. Here is why.TG is 29 years old. Shannon Sharpe was a good/great tight end until he was 35. That is 5-6 more years right there...also, if TG was on the "downside" of his career, why did he lead the league in receptions last year?? NOT LEAD TIGHT ENDS IN CATCHED, HE LED THE ENTIRE LEAGUE!!! How come he just became the ONLY tight end in THE HISTORY of the NFL to have 50+ catches for 8 straight years???? He is in the prime of his career, NOT on the downside.

[TheIceman05 0]

Okay, fine. Gonzales is a better tight end.But Gates is a better tight end now. Does that make you happy?Let's make a bet. You get Tony G's stats over the next 3 years.I'll take the average of his best 6 years.Let's see if new Tony G. even comes close to outperforming old Tony G.Gonzeles leading the league in receptions last year was impressive, but it was MORE the function of the Chiefs woeful recievers corps, Gonzales bitching a lot about not getting touches, D-co-ordinators having no choice but to scheme their linebackers against the run. Still very impressive. But I'd argue (and be correct) he was a better player 3 years ago.Ice

[mbreon 0]

To put some closure on the issue, I think we can all agree that TGon is a Hall of Fame tight end. One of the best to ever play that position, if not the best. I think we also all know that Antonio Gates is incredibly talented, putting together 2 great seasons in a row, with more to come. Barring some kind of major injury, we'll be saying the same things about Gates in a few years. To digress back to the original point of this thread, I do think the Colts will go undefeated this year (unless they rest their starters), though the Seattle game worries me. Even if they lose one game, I would count them as having one of the best regular seasons in NFL history. The key is obviously if they can win in the playoffs. I don't see any reason to think that they couldn't right now, but we will wait and see.

[MapleLeafs 142]

Dallas Clark pwns.

[KowboyKoop 0]

Also, one more thing on the Gates v. Gonzalez debate (please note that I am NOT a Gates hater or anything, he is a phenom, I like watching him play...)Everyone is acting like the numbers that Gates is putting up is something that proves that he is somehow "better" than Gonzalez. How is this to disprove that.These are Gates' "projected" numbers for this year, they could end up being better, or they could end up being worse, but we will use them here:Receptions- 84Yards- 1165Avg.- 13.9TD-11those are pretty good numbers, but do they really make him "better" than TG, who has had THESE numbers...1999 Receptions-76Yards-849Avg.-11.2TD-112000Receptions-93Yards-1203Avg.-12.9TD-92003Receptions-71Yards-916Avg.-12.9TD.-102004Receptions-102Yards-1258Avg.-12.3TD.-7now, I am NOT saying Gates will NEVER be as good as TG or that he ISN'T playing better than Gonzalez RIGHT NOW...but come on folks, you CANNOT deny that given both players accomplishments/careers, Gonzalez is the best TE in football for now and COULD go down as the all-time greatest tight end ever. (big emphasis on "could," he isn't the greatest yet.)