call or fold?

[Inferno 0]

Not sure if this is really as tough of a decision as I think it is but here goes.PokerStars Game #3223189924: Tournament #15701067, Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2005/12/02 - 20:38:35 (ET)Table '15701067 70' Seat #5 is the buttonSeat 1: neilp33 (2155 in chips) Seat 2: Big Dawg11 (1910 in chips) Seat 3: FaXXX (275 in chips) Seat 4: Sedd (3540 in chips) Seat 5: goodfella565 (2530 in chips) Seat 6: box cars (1020 in chips) Seat 7: WonderCall (1190 in chips) Seat 8: DiamondEater (2040 in chips) Seat 9: HoldenBeach (2300 in chips) box cars: posts small blind 50WonderCall: posts big blind 100*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Sedd [Jd As]DiamondEater: calls 100HoldenBeach: folds neilp33: folds Big Dawg11: folds FaXXX: folds Sedd: raises 250 to 350goodfella565: folds box cars: folds WonderCall: calls 250DiamondEater: calls 250*** FLOP *** [Ad 9c 5d]WonderCall: checks DiamondEater: checks Sedd: bets 500WonderCall: folds DiamondEater: raises 1190 to 1690 and is all-inSedd: .............? Flush draw on the board so this may be a semi-bluff. This could have also been called by a stronger Ace that would have me in bad shape, or a weaker ace that just caught two pair. There are alot of hands that can beat me here.But at the same time I just didnt belive this bet at all. So whats your move here? To call wont break me if I'm wrong and he has a hand but it will take alot of work to grind up a decent stack again. I also think my betting was a little weak on this hand, could I have avoided this situation if I played it a little stronger?

[copernicus 0]

he limps under the gun, calls a reraise with good pot odds, but out of position. Then he check raises....to me this stinks of flopping Aces up or a set.I fold without much hesitation. Nice bet on his part if he is semibluffing.

[tskillz187 0]

i think its a fold unless you have him pegged as a loose aggressive player, then id opt with calling. with no reads i fold, your stack is fine and you can find better spots and easier pots.

[therrinn 0]

Agree with Copernicus, he limped utg with a small pair, called the raise, and made his set. Fold em.

[Inferno 0]

Ok so heres what happened.PokerStars Game #3223189924: Tournament #15701067, Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2005/12/02 - 20:38:35 (ET)Table '15701067 70' Seat #5 is the buttonSeat 1: neilp33 (2155 in chips) Seat 2: Big Dawg11 (1910 in chips) Seat 3: FaXXX (275 in chips) Seat 4: Sedd (3540 in chips) Seat 5: goodfella565 (2530 in chips) Seat 6: box cars (1020 in chips) Seat 7: WonderCall (1190 in chips) Seat 8: DiamondEater (2040 in chips) Seat 9: HoldenBeach (2300 in chips) box cars: posts small blind 50WonderCall: posts big blind 100*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Sedd [Jd As]DiamondEater: calls 100HoldenBeach: folds neilp33: folds Big Dawg11: folds FaXXX: folds Sedd: raises 250 to 350goodfella565: folds box cars: folds WonderCall: calls 250DiamondEater: calls 250*** FLOP *** [Ad 9c 5d]WonderCall: checks DiamondEater: checks Sedd: bets 500WonderCall: folds DiamondEater: raises 1190 to 1690 and is all-inSedd: calls 1190*** TURN *** [Ad 9c 5d] [7d]*** RIVER *** [Ad 9c 5d 7d] [3h]*** SHOW DOWN ***DiamondEater: shows [4h Ah] (a pair of Aces)Sedd: shows [Jd As] (a pair of Aces - Jack kicker)Sedd collected 4480 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 4480 | Rake 0 Board [Ad 9c 5d 7d 3h]Seat 1: neilp33 folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 2: Big Dawg11 folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 3: FaXXX folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 4: Sedd showed [Jd As] and won (4480) with a pair of AcesSeat 5: goodfella565 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 6: box cars (small blind) folded before FlopSeat 7: WonderCall (big blind) folded on the FlopSeat 8: DiamondEater showed [4h Ah] and lost with a pair of AcesSeat 9: HoldenBeach folded before Flop (didn't bet) Well I happened to be right this time, but after the hand played out and I patted myself on the back for a nice call I started thinking about calls like this one that cost me tournaments. So I posted this here to confirm with your help if this was a bad call or not. Thanks for your responses.

[therrinn 0]

Yeah, cause limping UTG with A4 and then checkraising all in with top pair no kicker is an awesome strat.

[Guest]

I agree with copernicus and therinn generally on this topic, that there's too big a chance you are beat, especially in big money tournaments on major sites. But this brings to light an important issue that I think we are forgetting to address. That often in the low buy-in sitngo's, and in the first hour of loose low buy-in NL tourneys, people will make this play. I don't play on pokerstars so I don't know where that game lies in terms of skill, but if I'm playing in a 10 buck sitngo on party, or a 24+2 token tourney on full tilt (in the first hour) there's no way I lay that hand down. wwdd

[copernicus 0]

I agree with copernicus and therinn generally on this topic, that there's too big a chance you are beat, especially in big money tournaments on major sites.  But this brings to light an important issue that I think we are forgetting to address.  That often in the low buy-in sitngo's, and in the first hour of loose low buy-in NL tourneys, people will make this play.  I don't play on pokerstars so I don't know where that game lies in terms of skill, but if I'm playing in a 10 buck sitngo on party, or a 24+2 token tourney on full tilt (in the first hour) there's no way I lay that hand down.  wwdd

If the play is as awful is this, you dont need to take gambles with hands where you would be behind to a good player. You have plenty of time to take advantage of their weak play without risking the tourney on the chance that they looked down at a hand they couldnt misplay.The better you are compared to the field, the less you want to play big pots.

[Guest]

yes copernicus you make a good point, about not taking undue risks. But there is another side of that coin, and that is that there is a lot of dead money in those bad tourneys in the first hour, and its a great advantage if you are able to take advantage of the opportunities you are given against these goofy players. After the first hour in a 14K guaranteed tourney on full tilt, the loose goofy play dries up really fast, and there aren't close to as many easy chances to double your stack. I think of it as two approaches, survivalist or gambler in the first hour of a goofy tournament, and although most of those decisions are made preflop, there is still an argument to make for getting the easy chips off the goofy players in the first hour when you have a made hand (albeit not a great made hand by any means)I don't know though, I'm still deciding what type of approach I want to take in many tournaments, and also that depends on the situation and who you're playing against etc.

[augmented 0]

another thing is that you were getting really good odds, almost 3 to 1 if i'm adding it right, and i know that it doesnt really matter to your hand (as this is definitely a WA/WB situation), but you can use those odds to judge the player who checkraised you. if you are early in the tournament, you can hope that more than half the players there are donks, or whatever, so if you can think that he is this likely to be a complete moron moving in with JJ or A4 or something, its callable. your play is not as bad as it seems, and it worked this time.

[timwakefield 69]

I know that one usually doesn't get reads on a lot of players online, but did you have any reads on this guy? If he was sitting on his hands the whole game, or if I had seen him make a similar tricky play and show a monster, I might fold. Likewise if I thought that he loved bluffing or felt invincible, I would call. If I had no read on him I would probably call because of the pot size and the fact that you still have chips if you lose.

[copernicus 0]

I know that one usually doesn't get reads on a lot of players online, but did you have any reads on this guy? If he was sitting on his hands the whole game, or if I had seen him make a similar tricky play and show a monster, I might fold. Likewise if I thought that he loved bluffing or felt invincible, I would call. If I had no read on him I would probably call because of the pot size and the fact that you still have chips if you lose.

Another interesting factoid from talking with the pros this week is their general agreement that the most valuable "tells" are betting patterns which can be picked up online even more easily than live, especially if you use a tracking database. Physical tells are too easily misinterpreted or faked. One physical tell they emphasized is pretty reliable is the lack of attention to the progress of preflop betting by players who have looked at their cards before their turn, especially by the big blind. For that and a couple of other reasons, all except Robert Williamson III agreed that you should never look at your pockets until its your turn to play. (in fact I started a debate between Howard Lederer and RWIII over that, which was taped)

[Scott3705 0]

I don't see the buy in here, but if it' $20-5, I'm usually interpretting this as a weaker ace. (Read dependent of course). Early in a MTT is a great time to pick up loose money. I'm calling more players here then i'm folding too. I will fold this to a a certain type of player though. Just saying, in general I'm calling this.

[timwakefield 69]

I know that one usually doesn't get reads on a lot of players online, but did you have any reads on this guy?  If he was sitting on his hands the whole game, or if I had seen him make a similar tricky play and show a monster, I might fold.  Likewise if I thought that he loved bluffing or felt invincible, I would call.  If I had no read on him I would probably call because of the pot size and the fact that you still have chips if you lose.

Another interesting factoid from talking with the pros this week is their general agreement that the most valuable "tells" are betting patterns which can be picked up online even more easily than live, especially if you use a tracking database. Physical tells are too easily misinterpreted or faked. One physical tell they emphasized is pretty reliable is the lack of attention to the progress of preflop betting by players who have looked at their cards before their turn, especially by the big blind. For that and a couple of other reasons, all except Robert Williamson III agreed that you should never look at your pockets until its your turn to play. (in fact I started a debate between Howard Lederer and RWIII over that, which was taped)

Did you mean to post this in the tells discussion where I talked about people looking at their cards early?

[Inferno 0]

I know that one usually doesn't get reads on a lot of players online, but did you have any reads on this guy ?  If he was sitting on his hands the whole game, or if I had seen him make a similar tricky play and show a monster, I might fold.  Likewise if I thought that he loved bluffing or felt invincible, I would call.  If I had no read on him I would probably call because of the pot size and the fact that you still have chips if you lose.

No real solid reads to be honest, but this all in move did seem out of the ordinary for this player and felt like a steal attempt.

I don't see the buy in here, but if it' $20-5, I'm usually interpretting this as a weaker ace. (Read dependent of course). Early in a MTT is a great time to pick up loose money. I'm calling more players here then i'm folding too. I will fold this to a a certain type of player though. Just saying, in general I'm calling this.

Not even that, this was a $10 mtt. I know, I know, low stakes Donkey But I'm really trying to become a consistant player at this buy in before moving up ot $20 or more. If this is the right thing to do or not, I'm not sure but I dont think it will hurt.