thoughts?

[PimpRock 0]

Rebuy tournament, shortly after the freezeout begins, I have 9k in chips and reloacted to a new table. I get AQ clubs in the cutoff and after 2 limpers raise to 1200 (blinds 200/400) which is called in two spots by mid position players both of whom, have me covered in chips by at least 5k. Flop is K, K, 3 with 2 clubs. The player who is now utg leads out for 1600, it is folded by player 2 and I smooth call. Turn is the J diamonds... Player one leads out for 1600 again, I smooth call.River is the 4 diamonds, player one checks, I check. I am sure some may flame me for being weak tight here but I would like some further analysis to my play. Any thoughts? PS, apologioes to the purists for the double post but the traffic in the tourney section is very very low...

[Pupsta 0]

terrible preflop raise...if you're going to raise that, you need to raise it to at least 2000, if not more.

[PimpRock 0]

I was actually hoping for a post flop analysis... but duly noted.

[Pupsta 0]

I was actually hoping for a post flop analysis... but duly noted.

postflop almost surely plays out differently if you raise more pf

[PMJackson21 0]

Rebuy tournament, shortly after the freezeout begins, I have 9k in chips and reloacted to a new table. I get AQ clubs in the cutoff and after 2 limpers raise to 1200 (blinds 200/400) which is called in two spots by mid position players both of whom, have me covered in chips by at least 5k. Flop is K, K, 3 with 2 clubs. The player who is now utg leads out for 1600, it is folded by player 2 and I smooth call. Turn is the J diamonds... Player one leads out for 1600 again, I smooth call.River is the 4 diamonds, player one checks, I check. I am sure some may flame me for being weak tight here but I would like some further analysis to my play. Any thoughts? PS, apologioes to the purists for the double post but the traffic in the tourney section is very very low...

Raising on the flop is one way to play it. If you don't win the hand out right, then there is a good chance he will check to you after the turn, leaving you the option to take a free river card if you want.If I didn't raise the flop, then I'd probably raise the turn after he makes that weak bet. And if I was going to raise, it would be all-in.Again, if for some reason I didn't pounce on his weak bet on the turn, I'd probably push on the river after he checked to me. Out of all three scenarios, I'd feel best about a raise on the flop. You have position, and you are forcing your opponent to define his hand. If I had to guess, I'd say he had a mid pair?Like Pupsta said though, your first mistake was with the amount of the pre-flop raise. Patrick

[PimpRock 0]

Thanks PM... My read was very similar to yours but because I didnt know the player and because it was a multiway pot and he was playing out of position, I thought he could conceivably bet a K in this fashion.When talking it over with a buddy, he said the same thing as you but my argument as that if I come over the top of him, and he calls, I go out as a 2-1 dog. A year ago I woulda pushed that on the flop but I am trying to rethink tournament strat a little. It put me in mind of the Smash V Suited argument about whether raising was the right move (i.e. putting your tournament life on the line)... Anyways, thanks for the input...

[LPY2005 0]

I don't mind the preflop raise. $1600-2000 would have been better, but you can't make it 5xBB everytime in that situation. More than $2000 is wrong IMO. If you bet more than $2000 and are called, then if you miss and it's checked to you and you make a continuation bet you are basically pot committed with a weak hand.Raise or fold the flop. I don't like the call.

[PMJackson21 0]

I don't mind the preflop raise. $1600-2000 would have been better, but you can't make it 5xBB everytime in that situation. More than $2000 is wrong IMO.

The problem I have with his pre-flop raise is that it is giving the two limpers better odds then they had when they originally came into the pot. Let's say the blinds are at seat 1 and seat 2, and the limpers were seat 5 and seat 7. Seat 5 limps in, risking 400 to win 600 (1.5 to 1), and after seat 6 folds, seat 7 limps in risking 400 to win 1000 (2.5 to 1).Now, PimpRock raises to 1200, both blinds fold, and the action is back on seat 5. It's now 800 for him to win 2600 (3.25 to 1), and if he is pretty sure that seat 7 will call, he is getting even better odds. As for seat 7, once seat 5 calls, he would need to risk 800 to win 3400 (4.25 to 1). As you can see, both limpers are getting much better odds on their hands then they were when they first limped in. Combine that with the fact that AQ is a hand you should be more then happy to take down the pot pre-flop with, and it's obvious (to me at least) that the pf raise needed to be greater.Patrick

[thenutlow 0]

I don't mind the preflop raise. $1600-2000 would have been better, but you can't make it 5xBB everytime in that situation. More than $2000 is wrong IMO. If you bet more than $2000 and are called, then if you miss and it's checked to you and you make a continuation bet you are basically pot committed with a weak hand.Raise or fold the flop. I don't like the call.

I dont see why you cant make it 5*BB everytime in that situation, in fact making the same raise in certain situations all the time is probably the best way to conceal your hand strength. Its probably not optimal, but its generally not exploitable.As for the rest of your post, thats a hell of a lot of ifs.. How about if everyone folds, or if you flop an Ace and get paid off by a weaker ace, of if you flop a Q and get action from a weaker Q, or you flop overcards and a flush draw and bet the flop and take it down, or you miss, they miss, you bet, and they fold. These things will happen with more regularity then you thinkAs for the call on the flop.. I think its the best play. Not only can you play the hand with your clubs as outs, you can consider representing the K on the turn. Now, maybe the world is unfair, and he actually has the K, but more often then not they arent betting into the preflop raiser with the King in this spot.I cant be bothered to make another post, so I'll finish off in this one. I like the call on the flop, but I think you have enough outs to hammer it down on the turn, and expect to take it down a lot of the time then.I dont really like playing it passively until the river, and then trying to push the guy off his hand, because it is going to be a lot harder to convince him that you have the King. Raise/call the flop, and then if you call the flop, play the turn fast. If you dont play the turn fast, give up on the river if you miss

[flyingmoose 0]

I was actually hoping for a post flop analysis... but duly noted.

Your preflop raise was pretty bad any way you cut it, in my opinion. The rest of the hand is kind of tough to play, but your preflop leak is easy to fix. It's the first thing you should take away from the hand. If you raise to 2000 preflop, then you have an easy shove on the flop, and the hand won't make your brain hurt.As for your actual postflop play, I would consider a raise on the flop. You have outs unless he has exactly K3/33, and most players would check a king or a boat on this flop. I think you might have fold equity, and I would raise here a decent percentage of the time. Given that you just called on the flop, I like just calling the turn as well.On the river I would check behind. The pot is too big compared to your stack. You beat a lower flush draw now and not much else is folding.

[LPY2005 0]

I don't mind the preflop raise. $1600-2000 would have been better, but you can't make it 5xBB everytime in that situation. More than $2000 is wrong IMO.

The problem I have with his pre-flop raise is that it is giving the two limpers better odds then they had when they originally came into the pot. Let's say the blinds are at seat 1 and seat 2, and the limpers were seat 5 and seat 7. Seat 5 limps in, risking 400 to win 600 (1.5 to 1), and after seat 6 folds, seat 7 limps in risking 400 to win 1000 (2.5 to 1).Now, PimpRock raises to 1200, both blinds fold, and the action is back on seat 5. It's now 800 for him to win 2600 (3.25 to 1), and if he is pretty sure that seat 7 will call, he is getting even better odds. As for seat 7, once seat 5 calls, he would need to risk 800 to win 3400 (4.25 to 1). As you can see, both limpers are getting much better odds on their hands then they were when they first limped in. Combine that with the fact that AQ is a hand you should be more then happy to take down the pot pre-flop with, and it's obvious (to me at least) that the pf raise needed to be greater.Patrick

You have a good point about the calling odds for the two limpers, especially if limper 1 just calls limper two has to call with any two cards. A bigger preflop raise is clearly better to get limper 1 to fold. If limper 1 calls, chances are that limper 2 still has good enough odds to also call.I was thinking more of mixing up the raise amount. I did say that I thought it called for a larger raise, but still thought the 1200 raise was okay. I've changed my opinion on that.

[therrinn 0]

Pre-flop raise it up more, as has been noted already. Whenever people limp and then call a raise, I think its pretty likely that they have a low-middle pocket pair. Unless he has the king, your smooth call on the flop has him scared. You could try reraising the turn, but the weak bet also smells kinda funky to me, like he might be holding KJ and made that full house. Or you could fold on the flop. You could get into a lot of trouble if you make your flush into a paired board like this one.