how bad did i screw this up?

[Whatever 1]

:oops: The more I think about the more stupid my decision becomes. Is there any argument saying this was a correct decision?I was an above average stack in the $11 MTT the most of the tourney until going out in 324th (out of 2,380) with this stupid hand:***** *****NL Texas Hold'em Level:9 Blinds (200/400) - Wednesday, November 30, 2005Table Multi-Table(524700)Table #14 (Real Money)Seat 1 is the buttonTotal number of players : 10Seat 1: leppy0105 ( $5650 )Seat 4: MRPROPOKER55 ( $8985 )Seat 5: cwioo1 ( $5736 )Seat 6: celo2 ( $19862 )Seat 8: Whatever ( $6265 )Seat 9: gbark ( $760 )Seat 2: cfitz ( $9848 )Seat 7: scarecrow11 ( $3294 )Seat 10: toolrocks01 ( $8470 )Seat 3: matetuer ( $9890 )Level:9Blinds (200/400)** Dealing down cards **Dealt to Whatever[ As Jd ]MRPROPOKER55 foldscwioo1 folds.celo2 calls [400].scarecrow11 folds.Whatever is all-In [6265]gbark folds.toolrocks01 folds.leppy0105 folds.cfitz folds.matetuer folds.I totally expected him to lay it down. He had been playing a lot of hands and could fold after raising. (ha, just noticed he limped - another thing I didn't think about originally) celo2 calls [5865].Oops.He turns over KQo. Yay.** Dealing Flop ** [ 2c, 4s, Kd ]Oops.** Dealing Turn ** [ Tc ]Queen or Ace! Queen or Ace! Queen or Ace!** Dealing River ** [ 4d ]celo2 shows [ Qd, Ks ] two pairs, kings and fours.Whatever shows [ As, Jd ] a pair of fours.celo2 wins 13130 chips from the main pot with two pairs, kings and fours.Player Whatever finished in 324 place.

[Davin 0]

you made one cardinal sin in that hand: you tried to steal versus the bigstackthe range of hands he could call you with is huge: any ace, any two big cards, any pp. even if he loses, he'll have a nice stack.. and if he wins, he'll probably be around the chip lead. try this move against someone who would have to put his tournament life on the line to call... not against the bigstack. personally, i'd limp behind to try to catch a good flop and see what he does (since we have position). or maybe even better, fold and wait to steal against smaller opponents.

[LPY2005 0]

All-in with A-J offsuit with 4 players left to act plus a smooth call from the big stack in early position??? Sorry dude, you messed up. A raise of $1200 would have likely given you the same information about his hand without risking your tournament life, not to mention the 4 players left to act that could wake up with a monster hand.Side note, I think his call was a bit loose. Your stack can still hurt him. I'm not calling with KQo unless I figure you are a maniac.

[copernicus 0]

Side note, I think his call was a bit loose. Your stack can still hurt him. I'm not calling with KQo unless I figure you are a maniac.

I agree, its at least loose, and maybe even worse than that, but Ive seen it happen so often. The big stack is willing to gamble against a stack that is still meaningful to him. I suppose its from the "positioning yourself to win, not just survive" school of thought

[LPY2005 0]

Side note, I think his call was a bit loose. Your stack can still hurt him. I'm not calling with KQo unless I figure you are a maniac.

I agree, its at least loose, and maybe even worse than that, but Ive seen it happen so often. The big stack is willing to gamble against a stack that is still meaningful to him. I suppose its from the "positioning yourself to win, not just survive" school of thought

You may have a point. I guess if you are not confident in your skill to build up your stack making solid plays this be a correct strategy. I'd hope that not everyone thinks this is what it takes to get 1st place in a big MTT. Unless my opponent is pushing every second hand there is no way I call with this with only 400 invested in the pot. I'm no pro, but I've won more than my fair share of tournaments without throwing away 30% of my chips on a loose all-in call.

[flyingmoose 0]

Your raise was FINE. You almost definitely have the best hand, and the pot is significant to your stack. You did the right thing by trying to take the pot down now. Don't let the results of this hand make you question a good play.

[Davin 0]

Your raise was FINE.  You almost definitely have the best hand, and the pot is significant to your stack.  You did the right thing by trying to take the pot down now.  Don't let the results of this hand make you question a good play.

fine maybe against a smaller stacknot against the big stackyou must learn to respect them... or else you'll bust early from almost every tourney

[flyingmoose 0]

Your raise was FINE.  You almost definitely have the best hand, and the pot is significant to your stack.  You did the right thing by trying to take the pot down now.  Don't let the results of this hand make you question a good play.

fine maybe against a smaller stacknot against the big stackyou must learn to respect them... or else you'll bust early from almost every tourney

With >30 tables left in the tournament, you still need to accumulate a lot of chips to have a chance at taking this tournament down. Not pushing a +cEV edge when the field is still this large is stupid. Doing it because of a some mantra that applies to other situations is more so. You WANT the big stack to call if he has a worse hand.

[flyingmoose 0]

the range of hands he could call you with is  huge: any ace, any two big cards, any pp.

I hate to pick on you, but your logic is just way off. When you're big stack do you regularly limp/call off a third of your chips with any ace, any two big cards, any pocket pair?When you're sitting on a 15 big blind stack with 300 people left in the tournament, do you not want that range to call your all-in with AJ?

[Davin 0]

the range of hands he could call you with is  huge: any ace, any two big cards, any pp.

I hate to pick on you, but your logic is just way off. When you're big stack do you regularly limp/call off a third of your chips with any ace, any two big cards, any pocket pair?When you're sitting on a 15 big blind stack with 300 people left in the tournament, do you not want that range to call your all-in with AJ?

let's see:op made a huge pf raise, he wants to take it down right there. villain knows that op is weak.so... if villain has two big cards (as in this case) he might put op on a medium pp and wants to race, he can afford itif villain has a pp, he might put op on two high cards and wants to race, he can afford itgranted, getting called by a worse ace isnt going to happen very often, but then again, he can afford itas a matter of fact, villain could call w/ an even greater range of hands, such as a suited connector if he feels that op doesnt have a pp. simply put... he can afford itbasically, even if he lost, he's still chipleader at the table. but if he wins, he'll be in even better shape to dominateyou have absolutely no respect for the bigstack and that's scary. my logic isnt way off, your's is. and when is having your tournament life rest on ajo pf a good thing? that is an easily dominated had that doesnt dominate much else. and hell no, i dont want any hands calling in that situation. if i put in a raise, i want to take down that pot right then and there.his m is 10.5, the push was unwarranted in an unraised pot

[LPY2005 0]

Your raise was FINE. You almost definitely have the best hand, and the pot is significant to your stack. You did the right thing by trying to take the pot down now. Don't let the results of this hand make you question a good play.

I completely disagree. Are you forgetting about the 4 players left to act before you even get to see what the big stack does? You are just looking at the results. If one of the five players left to act turns over AK, AQ, AA-JJ instead of KQo is it still a good move to risk your tournament life to win a $1000 pot? Bad advice on your part IMO. No way I push with AJo in this situation.

[flyingmoose 0]

Your raise was FINE. You almost definitely have the best hand, and the pot is significant to your stack. You did the right thing by trying to take the pot down now. Don't let the results of this hand make you question a good play.

I completely disagree. Are you forgetting about the 4 players left to act before you even get to see what the big stack does? You are just looking at the results. If one of the five players left to act turns over AK, AQ, AA-JJ instead of KQo is it still a good move to risk your tournament life to win a $1000 pot? Bad advice on your part IMO. No way I push with AJo in this situation.

It's not particularly likely that one of the 4 players behind you wakes up with AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK/AQ. Pretty much everything else is folding this close to the bubble. You have enough chips to kill or cripple all of those players. If the tournament has antes, then there would be about $1200 in the pot, which could increase the OP's stack by almost 20%. That's significant. What would you suggest? Open-folding? Raising to 2000 and folding a pot the size of your stack on any flop you miss?

[flyingmoose 0]

the range of hands he could call you with is huge: any ace, any two big cards, any pp.

I hate to pick on you, but your logic is just way off. When you're big stack do you regularly limp/call off a third of your chips with any ace, any two big cards, any pocket pair?When you're sitting on a 15 big blind stack with 300 people left in the tournament, do you not want that range to call your all-in with AJ?

let's see:op made a huge pf raise, he wants to take it down right there. villain knows that op is weak.so... if villain has two big cards (as in this case) he might put op on a medium pp and wants to race, he can afford itif villain has a pp, he might put op on two high cards and wants to race, he can afford itgranted, getting called by a worse ace isnt going to happen very often, but then again, he can afford itas a matter of fact, villain could call w/ an even greater range of hands, such as a suited connector if he feels that op doesnt have a pp. simply put... he can afford itbasically, even if he lost, he's still chipleader at the table. but if he wins, he'll be in even better shape to dominateyou have absolutely no respect for the bigstack and that's scary. my logic isnt way off, your's is. and when is having your tournament life rest on ajo pf a good thing? that is an easily dominated had that doesnt dominate much else. and hell no, i dont want any hands calling in that situation. if i put in a raise, i want to take down that pot right then and there.his m is 10.5, the push was unwarranted in an unraised pot

Your logic is STILL way off, and it looks like you didn't even read my last post. YOU ARE FAR AWAY FROM THE FINAL TABLE AND NEED TO ACCUMULATE CHIPS. GETTING CALLED BY A WORSE HAND IS A GOOD WAY TO DO THAT. Your argument that "the big stack will call with a lot of hands that you beat" is a very bad reason not to make a move here.And I do have respect for the big stack -- when I'm trying to steal blinds. I rarely steal from the big stack, because he's the most likely to give me action in blind-stealing situations. I also resteal against big stacks less when he raises my blind from the button or CO, etc. This is a different situation. This is a spot where you have to believe you have the best hand, and can increase your stack nicely by raising. The question is how much to raise, and I think it's either to 2000 (in which case you'd have to call an all-in getting 2:1 when it comes back around) or just pushing now and putting maximum pressure on the other guy to make a decision.

[LPY2005 0]

Your raise was FINE. You almost definitely have the best hand, and the pot is significant to your stack. You did the right thing by trying to take the pot down now. Don't let the results of this hand make you question a good play.

I completely disagree. Are you forgetting about the 4 players left to act before you even get to see what the big stack does? You are just looking at the results. If one of the five players left to act turns over AK, AQ, AA-JJ instead of KQo is it still a good move to risk your tournament life to win a $1000 pot? Bad advice on your part IMO. No way I push with AJo in this situation.

It's not particularly likely that one of the 4 players behind you wakes up with AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK/AQ. Pretty much everything else is folding this close to the bubble. You have enough chips to kill or cripple all of those players. If the tournament has antes, then there would be about $1200 in the pot, which could increase the OP's stack by almost 20%. That's significant. What would you suggest? Open-folding? Raising to 2000 and folding a pot the size of your stack on any flop you miss?

I'm just stating the hands that have you dominated. An yes there is a good chance that someone has a hand that they will call you with that has AJ0 dominated. Discounting the A and J spoken for there are 38 possible combinations for these holdings out of a possible 1326 hands, which is about a 3% chance, times 5 players, well that's 15%. That's just the hands that dominate AJo. Any pair is a favorite over AJo. If the big blind will call with KQo surely he willl call with 1010/99/88. Since when do we fall in love with AJo anyway??? With less players or a lower M sure, but not here.I already suggested a good sized raise. I'd re-evaluate after the flop.

[flyingmoose 0]

Your raise was FINE. You almost definitely have the best hand, and the pot is significant to your stack. You did the right thing by trying to take the pot down now. Don't let the results of this hand make you question a good play.

I completely disagree. Are you forgetting about the 4 players left to act before you even get to see what the big stack does? You are just looking at the results. If one of the five players left to act turns over AK, AQ, AA-JJ instead of KQo is it still a good move to risk your tournament life to win a $1000 pot? Bad advice on your part IMO. No way I push with AJo in this situation.

It's not particularly likely that one of the 4 players behind you wakes up with AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK/AQ. Pretty much everything else is folding this close to the bubble. You have enough chips to kill or cripple all of those players. If the tournament has antes, then there would be about $1200 in the pot, which could increase the OP's stack by almost 20%. That's significant. What would you suggest? Open-folding? Raising to 2000 and folding a pot the size of your stack on any flop you miss?

I'm just stating the hands that have you dominated. An yes there is a good chance that someone has a hand that they will call you with that has AJ0 dominated. Discounting the A and J spoken for there are 38 possible combinations for these holdings out of a possible 1326 hands, which is about a 3% chance, times 5 players, well that's 15%. That's just the hands that dominate AJo. Any pair is a favorite over AJo. If the big blind will call with KQo surely he willl call with 1010/99/88. Since when do we fall in love with AJo anyway??? With less players or a lower M sure, but not here.I already suggested a good sized raise. I'd re-evaluate after the flop.

There are only 4 players who haven't acted yet. The limp by the bigstack leads me to believe that he doesn't have a monster. He's the least likely player at the table to slowplay a hand like that, and unless I had seen him limp with a big hand before, I would assume that he doesn't have one now. According to your calculations and my logic, there is a 12% chance that somebody has us dominated. I'm more than okay with that when I make this play. I'm not in love with AJ, and would almost certainly fold if the big stack had raised from early position. As things stand, I'm pretty sure I have the big stack beat, and the 4 players left to act are unlikely to have monsters, and the pot can increase my stack by 14-18% (depending on whether or not there is an ante).Most importantly, if I raise to 2000, I'm stuck calling a reraise all-in getting 2:1 on my call. When in a position where I would have to call an all-in, I always take the initiative and move in myself.

[LPY2005 0]

Well, flyingmoose, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm okay playing this after the flop with position.Hmmm, what would Harrington do?

[flyingmoose 0]

I'm not saying that a raise to 1600-2000 is a bad play, I'm saying that the OP's decision was OK -- certainly better than limping or folding.I also think that the 4 players left to act behind you should not pull against a push, because you'd have to call an all-in anyway, since you'd be getting such a good price on your call.

[nritchi3 0]

You have overplayed your hand as has been established. His call was loose for sure however. With you moving in like that he has a lot of reason to think he has two overcards. He isn't putting you on AA with that kinda push your probably gonna make a much smaller raise to try to draw him in. KK and QQ are hard for him to put you on since he has one of each of those and for the same reason as the AA ( maybe not so much the QQ. Therefore he is probably thinking your on JJ or 10 10. It's even hard for him to put you on AK AQ AJ, as he would probably would think that you know better than making this kinda play. Im not sure what the proper play would be here either a raise to 1200 if you think he's loose or maybe a call as should you should always "beware of the early limper"

[Whatever 1]

Thanks for the advice guys.