small suited cards defend big blind -- story at 11

[econ_tim 0]

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: econ_tim is BB with 5:spade:, 3:spade:. UTG raises, econ_tim calls.Flop: (4.50 SB) 6:spade:, 9:diamond:, K:spade: (2 players)econ_tim checks, UTG bets, UTG calls.Turn: (4.25 BB) A:spade: (2 players)econ_tim bets, UTG calls.River: (6.25 BB) T:diamond: (2 players)econ_tim bets, UTG calls.Final Pot: 12.25 BBUTG is pretty aggressive.Does everyone defend with this HU, even against EP raises?And flop c/r good?

[wrto4556 0]

i been thinking about this lately too. Most of the smaller cards I have been tossing when its heads up. deuces and treys are really bad cards when its short handed.

[TheIceman05 0]

I defend here, unless I'm sure the raiser a) is supertight b) is pretty good after the flop.I defend my BB like a drunk, and I play profitably. I think I earn enough pots heads up to make defending with anything reasonable profitable.You're a six-max star, though... I play the hand this way in a ring game.Also, I c/r with worse hands....Ice

[MrNiceGuy 0]

I agree with Ice, I think this hand will hit the flop often enough to make it a profitable defense against most players.I've been thinking about this... What do you guys think is better to defend with here, J8s or 53s (assuming that the raiser is fairly aggressive, but not a maniac, when it comes to open-raising from EP). I'm thinking that 53s might be the better hand due to the fact that it's unlikely to be dominated.Not sure though....wrto is right, low cards suck, especially in heads up situations.(I just checked in pokerstove to see some preflop equities; against 77+,A7s+,KTs+,QJs,A8o+,KTo+, both 53s and J8s are about 34.5% to win).

[TheIceman05 0]

I think the difference is small. Js and 8s are more likely to be dominated by hands like AJ/A8/KJ, etc.But 35 is much more likely to be bombed by an overpair.I'd probably rather play J8s, but barely.I slip away on both, like a drunkIce

[screech 0]

I'm usually a huge fan of c/ring my flush draws in HU pots.I would have played the hand the same way. But today it stops. I just hand an epiphany(?).I am going to say one of the craziest things ever for six max. Check/call that flop.There I said it. I want villian to have the lead in this hand. Most UTG raising hands will have some interest in this flop. A lot of those hands contain TPGK, and will 3-bet. Some of those hands contain gutshots and aren't going anyhere. Other's contain pp's that aren't going to fold to your lame ass check/raise-lead line HU (unless your opponent is very weak).When you get 3-bet on this flop, you lose a lot of money. This is because your pair outs are worthless.Same goes for when the action goes check/raise, call. You lead. Villian raises the turn when the flush doesn't come in. Again, you lose a lot of money.Let's say he has a pp and decides to call you down. Now you c/r the flop, bet the turn, and desperately bet the river. Chances are, you missed your flush, and villian will collect a nice pot.The only time c/ring this flop is advantageous is when villian has AQ/AJ/AT. In these cases, you will be roughly 50% to win at showdown, so all bets going into the flop will have deceptive purposes. But if you have the lead going into the turn, you have to be careful if a paint card hits. And on the river, most opponents will call with these UI hands if the flush doesn't come in.Another point to be made is you don't have to check/call this flop. Bet/call is just as good (if not better). It will add deception to your hand, you can't get 3-bet on the flop, and villian will have the lead going into the turn.Note that all this only applies for when you're OOP against good players. If you are up a weak player who will fold his hands to readily on the turn or river, by all means do whatever you have to do to convince him your hand is best on the flop.

[TheIceman05 0]

I'm usually a huge fan of c/ring my flush draws in HU pots.I would have played the hand the same way.  But today it stops.  I just hand an epiphany(?).I am going to say one of the craziest things ever for six max.  Check/call that flop.There I said it.  

Stupid, stupid, dumb, ignoramus, dumb, stupid, dumb, dumb, dubmy, dumber, dumb.Assuming our opponent is going to play perfectly- or even well- is a mistake. A 3-bet's not incredibly likely.The check/raise/lead line takes the pot down enough to be profitable. When we begin factoring metagame conditions (we HAVE to check-rase with draws, especially in a 6 handed game, even more often since we're HU), this becomes one of the simpler check-raises.Screech, I hate the passive line. No matter what you think, we have some fold-equity here, and since we have a 9out draw, we might as well utilize it. You rarely get a chance to push fold equity. Shouldn't waste it.Ice

[MrNiceGuy 0]

The check/raise/lead line takes the pot down enough to be profitable.  When we begin factoring metagame conditions (we HAVE to check-rase with draws, especially in a 6 handed game, even more often since we're HU), this becomes one of the simpler check-raises.Screech, I hate the passive line.  No matter what you think, we have some fold-equity here, and since we have a 9out draw, we might as well utilize it.  You rarely get a chance to push fold equity.  Shouldn't waste it.Ice

I agree. If there's an A on the flop, I'm more inclined to simply c/c (since villain is very likely to hold either an A or a high pair, and a high pair is likely to be stubborn and call down). But I think we have too much fold equity not to c/r with just the K out there - the K helps our fold equity against A-x hands.

[Sysvr4 0]

Out of position I check/call the flop. With position I'd raise it.If a spade doesn't fall on the turn you're kind of lost. On the one hand, you're HU and think you have fold equity so you have to bet. OTOH, you're out of position and villain may very well have waited til the turn to raise AK since he has position (I prolly would against an aggro who I had position on).I agree with screech.That's twice in one month!Jeff

[screech 0]

Screech, I hate the passive line. No matter what you think, we have some fold-equity here, and since we have a 9out draw, we might as well utilize it. You rarely get a chance to push fold equity. Shouldn't waste it.

I agree. I love fold equity and I love to check/raise flush draws.I hate playing passive, even when I know it's best.But, when we have very little fold equity, pushing our 9 out draw this way is a waste of money.Against opponents who play weak/bad, I'm all for the c/r lead flop. I love confusing these opponents and making them lay down the best hand. It's fun and it's profitable.If we had say Q4s, again I would be all for the flop c/r against a good opponent. We are now much better against pp's, and if we pair our queen, we won't get outdrawn as often. We can't completely ignore the flop texture, and the quality of our opponents. You can't just think I flopped a flush draw HU, so I'm going to c/r. You have to adapt.

I agree with screech.

Me too.

That's twice in one month!

Impossible! I only made 1 post this month.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

If villain routinely calls down w/ A-high, then I agree that c/c on the flop is better than c/r.But assuming villain will fold A-high either on the flop or on the turn UI, then I think c/r is clearly better.If villain only has A-high, then by raising, we gain ~3.5 SB versus calling (since we have about 50% equity when we just call, so we win roughly half the pot by raising (exactly how much we win depends on if we would get any action when we hit after calling the flop, and whether villain has a high spade)). Of course, some small fraction of the time, villain will have a suited Ax of spades, in which case raising is worse than calling.When villain decides to call down (say, with a pocket pair), raising the flop costs us ~1/3 of a SB versus calling (since we put in 1 SB, as does villain, and we win the 2 extra SB 1/3 of the time). Again, exactly how much we lose depends on how our flop raise impacts future action.Similarly, when villain 3-bets the flop, we lose ~2/3 of an SB, and on the rare occasion when villain calls the flop and pops the turn, we lose ~1 SB.I think most villains will have A-high after this flop somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of the time.So unless I've overlooked something significant, to me this is a clear check-raise against an opponent who will not call down with A-high.

[screech 0]

So unless I've overlooked something significant, to me this is a clear check-raise against an opponent who will not call down with A-high.

That's pretty much what I said.

[Garn 0]

i think that preflop was just a little loose but no huge problems. post flop was fine though. a nice tricky c/r on the flop.

[oceansize 0]

I typically have to have made something of my stack before I defend small cards in the blinds. Even Ax where x is a middle card (7,8,9)is hard to call with when there are still 3 in the pot and it was raised significantly once.Now if I'm in a situation where there has already been opportunities made and exploited and I've taken a bunch of small pots or one big one, that is when I am prime to defend with small suiters, connecters, and pairs OH MY. That is when it is my time to purchase the one dollar scratch off. Otherwise, most of the time, it's not a great idea. Most likely you'll be making decisions early based off pairing the third button on the flop with a three card flush or straight draw, and that is never a good place to be....wouldn't wish that on anyone man...Los

[econ_tim 0]

I typically have to have made something of my stack before I defend small cards in the blinds.

huh? are you a NL player?

[oceansize 0]

My bad econ....my bad. Been looking up the posts kind of randomly and saw so many NL I assumed at the start of this one....nevermind...my bad