phil helmuth hand of the week

[JFarrell20 1]

Hey, this is my first post on Fullcontactpoker.com and its not going to be a long one. First off, Jfarrell20, you dont seem to know a whole lot about poker or recent poker histort for that matter, so I find your clain that you could beat Phil to be slightly on the impossible side. Phil Helmuth is a PROFESSIONAL poker player. He has seen more hands this year than you will most likely see in your entire life. While I don't think Phil made the right move on this particular play, he didn't necessarily make a poor one. He limped in With J-9 in the small blind and hoyt just checked, not giving Phil any information on what he had. When Phil raised to test the waters and Hoyt reraised, Phil was a little scared, which is why he hesitated to raise when the 7 came down on the turn. When a second 7 came down on the river, how could you expect him to read that Hoyt had caught a set? It was an OK move to bet the river, however, allready showing weakness by checking the turn, I would have been hesitant to make a bet in this situation. Now, to make things interesting, Hoyt raises Phil over the top. I think Phil let his ego get in the way here in calling this re-raise, but it wasnt a bad call. Phill could have been beat many ways in this situation, and I think he should have just laid it down and kept his money in his stack. Helmuth is a far greater playern than Hoyt Corkins, and barring some running card phenomenon, Phil would have taken Hoyt Corkins down in the championship style I've grown accustumed to seeing him play.

Hellmuth won two bracelets in 2003? That's ancient history. The field of poker players has at least doubled since then. Hellmuth's good, but not legendary like he once was.Maybe I can't beat Hellmuth, but check out the thread "How to finish 1st..err..2nd in a 20-person SNG" Page 1 and 2. I make some plays in there that I haven't seen Hellmuth make in a while.

[1Big_Out 0]

Wait... I'm alittle confused Sug Hansen?

[Ramocita 0]

As much as I love Phil....Sorry... .if that offends anyone.. I do like him a lot.Hoyt even said himself... I think it was the trip kings hand... I remember it well.... Hoyt said " If you would have bet the turn.. you could have took the pot away from me "...... That made Phil have fire coming off the top of his head.... because Phil knew Hoyt was right... and I agree...Just my 2 Cents

[uahphysics 0]

The field of poker players has grown, yes, and that's why a pro hasn't won the main event in three years, so why is everyone bashing Phil? I mean, Doyle Brunson isn't exactly at the top of his game, he isn't exactly topping the charts every year, but noone denies how good of a player he is. I'm sorry if I sound like I"m on a rant here, but I try to defend to Phil Hellmuth because he really is a great great player, but since he doesn't win TV tournaments, and only gets shown as a whiner, he gets a bad rap and that's just not the case. Sure, he whines and complains, but he'll be the first to admit it. Everyone likes to measure poker players by their success, but when anyone brings up Phil's Nine Hold 'em bracelets, they retrack and say you can't measure a poker player by bracelets. Here are the facts, Phil Hellmuth is a great tournament hold 'em player, and a great tournament player in general, he has earned over three and a half million dollars playing tournament poker, surpassed only by Greg Raymer after he won one tournament, Phil makes a career out of playing poker, and a successful one at that. Someone said that phil was good, but not legendary anymore, and that may be true, but who is? with the field of poker players growing everyday, who can become a legendary player? Don't get me wrong, Daniel N. is a great poker player, and having an absolutely phenomenal year, and I'm sure his career is going to be absolutely astounding, but is he legendary?? Phil understands poker, phil understands tournament poker, I mean, would any of you had laid down an open-ended straight flush draw on the flop?? Most pros were even yelling at Phil for that play, but the simple truth is, Phil knew what he was doing, and Phil made the correct decision. You guys can badmouth Phil all you want, but I highly doubt most of you will ever have a good a career as him(myself definately included). Sorry for the long post, but I figured someone had to defend Phil.

[joed86 0]

Phil played the hand in question fine. Hoyt hit runners which he will hit like 1 in 400 times or something ridiculous (don't get me wrong I think Hoyt's great too). If you read "Mr All In" you know that throughout the previous days of the tournament Hoyt had been coming over the top of Phil all the time, he was being patient and folding each time. On the J9 J7 hand, Phil simply read him for nothing and tried to get him to bluff off all his money. Hoyt caught runners. For what Hoyt had Phil played it absolutely perfectly. I might steam a little bit too if someone hit two perfect cards on me when I had them drawing all but dead, and raising into me.

[Saint Joel 0]

Hellmuth won two bracelets in 2003? That's ancient history. The field of poker players has at least doubled since then. Hellmuth's good, but not legendary like he once was.Maybe I can't beat Hellmuth, but check out the thread "How to finish 1st..err..2nd in a 20-person SNG" Page 1 and 2. I make some plays in there that I haven't seen Hellmuth make in a while.

win 9 bracelets, then you can mouth off all you like.

[cardo1971 0]

I read this article on card player and got a huge kick out of it.card player articleIf any one saw this tournament phil got his ass handed too him the j9 vs j7 hand was brilliant, phil played this hand terribly, and acts like he played it perfect.he bet top pair with j9 hoyt corkins raises him on a bluff with j7 he smooth calls, turn card hoyt lands a 7 they both check gives a free card hoyt lands a set.no offense but when was it good poker to slow play one pair of 9s with a jack kicker, and give 2 free cards, I dont care if the guy has 29 os by letting him see the turn and river with out charging you are asking to lose.so what am I missing here?

if you listen after this hand , hoyt says, he wasnt going to put another cent into the pot, so had phil bet the turn, he would have won

[Awful 0]

The problem is Phil doesn't describe his position. He might not know Hoyt is done with the hand on the turn, checking to him and there's nothing he can do. He doesn't whine about Hoyt check-raising him, so I assume Phil is out of position. This makes it tough to deny the free card on the turn that breaks him, as after being raised, he needs to check to the raiser to set the trap. Unless Hoyt says "I'm done with the hand,give me a freebie and I'll take it, oh, I have a pair now, too", phil cannot help but try to trap Corkins there, and it results in the free card. Hoyt, knowing Phil was probably out to trap him, checked behind since he had outs all of a sudden and he caught one of his 2 remaining outs on the river.Furthermore, you can't just take 1 pot of medium size down to catch up to someone whaling on you with aggressive play. It's not about winning the pot. If you're gonna give up pots waiting for a hand to trap with, you damn well better trap him for a lot of chips. He needs to fear your checking, and you need to overcome the gap created by the past 12 hands you mucked to his raises. For both psychological reasons and simple math, you need to trap if that's how you fight back.His reasoning is fine given the players and situation. He got drawn out on by Hoyt catching 2 perfect, so he does his Phil whining. Phil should avoid using the article as a wank-fest for his ego and an outlet for bad beat whining, but that's a different matter than "did he play OK given the situation" and "is phil still any good?"Phil knew what he was doing, took a risk, and it didn't work out. I'm sure everyone on the board has had a slowplay or trap fall apart on them due to the fall of the cards, and a less daring one, and a less advantageous one at that (drawing to runner-runner 77 or 8T). To disparage Phil for taking a beat, even though he let it happen, is a mistake because you're ignoring the fundamental lesson here about the importance of position and knowledge of your 0pponent's play and intentions exhibited by both players.

[KDawgCometh 2]

if you listen after this hand , hoyt says, he wasnt going to put another cent into the pot, so had phil bet the turn, he would have won

thank you, I said the same thing and no one listened, so maybe if we say it together they will hear it

[woguy213 0]

JFarrell20: are those really your favorite bands? C'mon, Helmuth's funny.

[jack24bauer24 0]

Let me get this straight, JFarrell is comparing how he plays in a 2 table sit and go to how Phil Hellmuth plays in $10 k buy in events against the best players in the world?This may be, and this is saying a lot considering what I read on this site, the single dumbest comment I've read.

[Foulky 0]

Though I don't think Phil played the hand as well he thought he did, I think too many people have given Phil flack on how he played it. Phil limped from the small blind and Hoyt checked in the big blind. Now Hoyt will raise with any pair, any Ace with kicked of 9 or higher, KQ, KJ, K10, and maybe QJ and Q10. Hoyt consistantly used his position on Phil and go over the top on him. Phil floped top pair with a good kicker. The only hand Phil really had to worry about is an odd two pair or K9 or Q9. The check on the I bet was more of a safety check on the turn was more of a safety check than anything else. When Hoyt checked behind Phil, Phil rightly bet the river. His call of Hoyt's raise can be argued as bad. Phil's reaction is understandable because he suffered 989 to 1 beat.

You were right with everything you said except the last statement. When Phil bet 80,000 on the river Hoyt re-raised him just another 80,000. So with so much money in the pot the call was fine. Also people don't realize how Phil plays. He loves playing small pots and he puts so much on his reading ability, which in his tournament career has been pretty good (looking at his achievements i.e. 9 WSOP bracelets all in Hold'em). His reasoning for just calling the raise on the flop is that he will "let" Hoyt bluff off more chips... but Hoyt smartly admitted once Phil called he was not going to bluff at it again. Hoyt knows Phil makes good reads and he wasn't going to dump a lot of chips to Phil on a bluff.Also, the hand where Phil made 3 kings on the turn, Hoyt has top pair (aces, with a jack kicked) and a royal flush draw. So pretty much any bet Phil made Hoyt would call unless it was huge like an all-in but those kind of bets aren't Phil's style. Phil knows Hoyt likes to take the lead and he figured he could take the pot with a check-raise on the turn. I think Phil has great reading abilities, but he just puts a little too much pressure on himself to make the perfect read everytime, and sometimes it gets him into trouble.

[JFarrell20 1]

Hellmuth won two bracelets in 2003?  That's ancient history.  The field of poker players has at least doubled since then.  Hellmuth's good, but not legendary like he once was.Maybe I can't beat Hellmuth, but check out the thread "How to finish 1st..err..2nd in a 20-person SNG" Page 1 and 2.  I make some plays in there that I haven't seen Hellmuth make in a while.

win 9 bracelets, then you can mouth off all you like.

Mouth off??? Jeez, do you own Hellmuth stock or something???Is that Mitch Hedberg? Now he's legendary!

[JFarrell20 1]

Let me get this straight, JFarrell is comparing how he plays in a 2 table sit and go to how Phil Hellmuth plays in $10 k buy in events against the best players in the world?This may be, and this is saying a lot considering what I read on this site, the single dumbest comment I've read.

All I said was I can beat him. You guys can't? Nice confidence. A lot of you have this "I don't have a big bankroll, therefore I'm not good" mentality. Just b/c you don't currently play against the best of the best, doesn't mean you don't have it in you.

[jack24bauer24 0]

I say once again, that comparing a 2 table sit and go to playing Phil Hellmuth is insane.

[Skydancing8 0]

I dont remember everythign about the hand, however I know that Hoyt was drawing dead on the flop to running 7's. People are forgetting that part of the hand. I believe Phil made the comment that he was a 35-1 on the flop to win that hand, then If you hit another Jack instead you lose all your chips.Correct me if I'm wrong but I remember that being a horrible beat for Phil. It was like he says..."They give me the money, then hit miracle after miracle to take it away."

[jayboogie 0]

Yeah Hellmuth got unlucky, but he got greedy and tried to trap, that's what happens sometimes when you try to trap, you allow your opponents to hit those runner runners. Each time, it could have been prevented, but he tried to trap and it backfired, that's poker.It's nice to be confident, but you also shouldn't be delusional and think your better than you are either. What have you done that remotely compares to what Phil Hellmuth has done? When you have won some bracelets, you can start talking, until you do that, keep opinions like this to yourself or expect to get comments coming your way. Poker is judged by winning money, you can call yourself the best low limit player in the world for all I care but if I'm the worst high limit player in the world and making more money than you, I'm still better off than you.

[cmak3687 0]

i really dont think phil played the hand that poorly here, i mean what is the point of betting if he's just going to get raised by hoyt or hoyt is going to fold? He probably has hoyt drawing very slim, and he'd make more by just checking and letting hoyt bluff at it and he could just call. In fact hoyt was drawing to 2 outs, and as phil said if a jack had hit he would have doubled up off hoyt. And i am definitely not a phil hellmuth fan by any means, but i do think he played it correctly.

[DJ_Chaps 0]

can i get a big to all the folks who think they can "beat phil"?? what, do you mean you can win a pot? wooooooooooooo, get ur ass to vegas. dress warm for the hitchhike back.

[JFarrell20 1]

can i get a big to all the folks who think they can "beat phil"?? what, do you mean you can win a pot? wooooooooooooo, get ur ass to vegas. dress warm for the hitchhike back.

Hey, we have a winner! Someone knows about deduction! Reasoning! Logic!I said I could beat Hellmuth, I didn't say how often/at what rate, etc. Surely if you face phil enough heads up you will beat him. I never said I could beat him every time. I just said I could beat him, in other words, he's "beatable". Any one of us should be able to beat Phil at our stakes of course. You guys need to learn to listen before you jump all over someone.

[jack24bauer24 0]

Yet again, I have to say that comparing a 2 table sit and go to Phil playing Hoyt is incredibly ludicrous.

[DerFCobain 0]

I normally just read the forum.. but i had to register to reply to this..

I said I could beat Hellmuth, I didn't say how often/at what rate, etc. Surely if you face phil enough heads up you will beat him. I never said I could beat him every time. I just said I could beat him, in other words, he's "beatable". Any one of us should be able to beat Phil at our stakes of course. You guys need to learn to listen before you jump all over someone.

This has to be the dumbest thing i have heard.. you can play anyone heads up and you will beat them once in awhile... You can beat any poker player at a full table once in awhile. To say that you can beat Phil beacuse you win a 20 person sit and go is insane, i agree. There is a difference between being confident and just being stupid. I am confident that I can sit down and play at a table with Phil. But by no means am I even close to as good as he is.

[rwood 0]

Jfarrell20""All I said was I can beat him. You guys can't? Nice confidence. A lot of you have this "I don't have a big bankroll, therefore I'm not good" mentality. Just b/c you don't currently play against the best of the best, doesn't mean you don't have it in you.""are you insane? you play 5 dollar sit n go's. why do you think that your bankroll isnt as big as phils? do you think he just got handed his hundreds of thousands of dollar bankroll? hellmuth is in his mid-thirties and has 9 bracelets, 2 of which he won in 2003, he still consistantly makes final tables. how many final tables have any of us made in our lives at a 10k buy in event? phil is a whiner, and an amazing player. he makes mistakes on hands, but what player doesnt? hellmuth is also one of the funnest players to watch on tv. going runner runner on phil hellmuth has to be one of the top 10 funnest things to do in the world. whoever criticized hellmuth as an overall player is retarded, he is one of the greatest tournament poker players ever. i like pie

[bourbenz 0]

Phil played the hand correctly...if anything other than the 7 comes off on the river, Hoyt bets when Phil checks, and Phil gets paid off. Its easy to say Phil misplayed the hand when Hoyt goes absolute miracle miracle to win the pot. Phil knew that if he checked the turn he was going to get a big bet from Hoyt, either on the turn or the river.As for saying that Phil could have reraised hoyt on the flop, well the way Hoyt plays he easily could have just gone all in making it nearly impossible for Phil to call. Fact of the matter is, Hoyt went perfect perfect to win the pot.

I completely disagree, i became apparent to hoyt when phil called the reraise thew at he had a nine. Phil had j9 and you cant tell me he knew hoyt had j7, I'm saying any legitimate hand hoyt could of had could have caught on the turn and river and phil let him catch it, it takes a hell of a lot more than a apir of nines and a jack kicker to set a trap that isnt vulnerable. He playeds like scared money and then on the river was out played by someone who knew his hand when he didnt know theres.did Hoyt get lucky sure, was it a bad beat for phil sure, did he play it right hell no.

[TheMathProf 0]

I said I could beat Hellmuth, I didn't say how often/at what rate, etc. Surely if you face phil enough heads up you will beat him. I never said I could beat him every time. I just said I could beat him, in other words, he's "beatable". Any one of us should be able to beat Phil at our stakes of course. You guys need to learn to listen before you jump all over someone.

It's like a chess player saying that he can beat Kasparov because he might capture a pawn.