inducing a call w/the nuts

[brabz 0]

Hey all, first foray into the Strat section, generals a bit crowded for my liking.Anyway, just thought this was an interesting/effective approach to inducing a big call against a less experienced player. Playing $20 buy-in 2 table tournament at my frat yesterday evening. Starting chips: 2kBlinds: 25/50 at time of play. Second LevelPosition: FPMy Cards: K ,J No raises pre-flop, just call. 4 to flopFlop: Q ,A ,6 Action: I check, 1EP check, 1MP check, LP makes weak bet 75, all called, 4 to turn.Turn: 10 (My money card)Action: Bet low at 150, two folds, LP reraises to 325, I smooth call, and then go on to make my announcement. :the player in LP is a nice guy, but ruins his chances of more success by being extraordinarily cynical about being beat:With this in mind, and my loose table image, before the river card I announce I'm going to put the rest of my chips in in the dark giving the table a broad smile and putting everything in the pot in one stack(no counting, no number annouced) confidently. LP player looks mindly stunned and completely disbelieving of dark action all-in.River: 3 Meaningless card for me, and I sit there watching as he tries to comprehend what I'm playing with and why I would go all-in in the dark. In the end, puts himself all-in to call and is immediately eliminated as his Q , 10 (2 pair) falls to my straight.Overrall, I think I made a pretty interesting play on it to induce a call, and was just curious about any general commentary about it. Not a great commonplace play to push all-in in the dark, but I felt it accomplished what it needed to. And on the note of the presence of two spades by the turn, his betting indicated either face cards for big pairs or a draw to a straight, so the flush was not a concern IMO at the time.

[Abbaddabba 0]

FP stands for what, first position? Fold preflop, but if you do manage to get that far, reraise the turn. Announcing that you're going all in on the river blind after calling the turn is just idiotic. He's far _less_ likely to call the river unimproved. An ace, a 6, a king or a jack are all likely to have him folding. Well, to be fair, there are a few possible river cards that make it more likely for him to call - that being when he fills up and has you beat.You got him to call with two pair when the river bricked. Who cares? You could have done the exact same thing if you pushed on the turn, without risking a bad river card getting him to fold.

[goose 0]

congratulations, you've just made one of the stupidest poker moves I've ever seen.So if he's on a flush draw or has two pair, you let him see a FREE river card, and then commit to putting all your chips in even if a ridiculously dangerous card hits on the river (i.e. A:spade:)... or he hits his gutshot to split the pot. wow... that's genius....If he has 2 pair he has a 10% chance of making a fullhouse, if he has a set he has a 23% chance of making a fullhouse, and if he does have a flush draw he has a 19% chance.

[MarionSauce 0]

Hey, be careful on the turn. Its a highly dangerous coordinated board. Your straight can easily be beat later. You can try doing what Aseem does. Push or put in a large reraise and say "gambooooooooooool!!!!"

[brabz 0]

More or less what I should have expected response-wise. I'm aware the call on the turn was not sound general strategy and that I gave him a free river, but I felt that my hand's own strength and his cynical-callingstation'ish play would lead him to call me down regardless of improvement. Also, considering I knew him from previous experience playing together, and that I had pegged him pretty well on his hand, I still feel it was a good play. If I normally made that play , I can fully understand being flamed and called retarded, but part of the game is switching gears and I took on a gambling-uber loose persona to induce a call when I was a very strong favorite and it paid off. Have a good one.

[brabz 0]

BTW, good luck with the Maritime Sports book tournament thing MarionSauce, if you ever get it going, :-)

[goose 0]

More or less what I should have  expected response-wise. I'm aware the call on the turn was not sound general strategy and that I gave him a free river, but I felt that my hand's own strength and his cynical-callingstation'ish  play would lead him to call me down regardless of improvement. Also, considering I knew him from previous experience playing together, and that I  had pegged him pretty well on his hand, I still feel it was a good play. If I  normally made that play , I can fully understand being flamed and called retarded, but part of the game is switching gears and I took on a gambling-uber loose persona to induce a call when I was a very strong favorite and it paid off.  Have a good one.

The point isn't that you gave him a free river, I'm okay with a check if you think you've pegged him on two pairs or TPTK, it's that you gave him a free river and committed all your chips to whatever the river was. This isn't changing up gears, this is sheer idiocy.

[TeeSludge 0]

Brabz,Where do you go to school?My favorite move to induce a call when I'm playing live is to put a couple dollar chips on my cards and fake handing them to the dealer as if the hand is already over while my opponent is contemplating a call. It almost always works.

[brabz 0]

I'm up in Rutgers-NB Tremomey.I find it hard to believe that a creative bet in No-Limit is 'pure idiocy'. I may have taken a risk letting him get a free card to outdraw me, but the vast majority of the time he won't get that card, and if I had simply moved all-in after the harmless river card that didn't improve his hand, he may have dropped it. He stayed in and busted out thinking I was bluffing because I made an unorthodox move that threw off his perceptions and understanding of what I might hold.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Also, considering I knew him from previous experience playing together, and that I had pegged him pretty well on his hand, I still feel it was a good play. If I normally made that play , I can fully understand being flamed and called retarded, but part of the game is switching gears and I took on a gambling-uber loose persona to induce a call when I was a very strong favorite and it paid off.

Uhm, no.It's not changing gears. You didn't induce a call. It's just bad play. No amount of buzz words can make it sound like a good move. It's easy to look like a star when you limp in early position with trash, draw and hit the nuts and have some other guy make a strong, but second best hand. I mean, i guess if your intent was to develop a table image of being a terrible player; mission accomplished.

[copernicus 0]

Brabz,Where do you go to school?My favorite move to induce a call when I'm playing live is to put a couple dollar chips on my cards and fake handing them to the dealer as if the hand is already over while my opponent is contemplating a call. It almost always works.

And in a very strict room would be considered a fold out of turn, would be folded and earn you a warning.The "blind bet" gambit is more effective with a semi-bluffing hand, and was used in one of the WPT shows this season.

[Hobbes 1]

So you bet out and called a raise (raise, not re-raise) on the turn and the read this guy makes is that you're bluffing? Your all-in in the dark = re-raising all-in on the turn, but letting your opponent see the river before deciding if he wants to call. I just don't see how that move would change your opponent's read on you. Obviously if that move did indeed change his read from strong to bluff, then it's a great play, but it's hard to come to that conclusion, in my opinion.

[goose 0]

I'm up in Rutgers-NB Tremomey.I find it hard to believe that a creative bet in No-Limit is 'pure idiocy'. I may have taken a risk letting him get a free card to outdraw me, but the vast majority of the time he won't get that card, and if I had simply moved all-in after the harmless river card that didn't improve his hand, he may have dropped it. He stayed in and busted out thinking I was bluffing because I made an unorthodox move that threw off his perceptions and understanding of what I might hold.

Actually it's not the vast majority of the time. If you put him on a big pair/set hand that you can't clearly identify (i.e. a set or two pair or a big pair with a big kicker that gives him a gutshot), then there's over a 1/3 chance a danger card will hit. That's not even accounting for the flush draw.Over 50% of the cards left in the deck will tie/beat your "nuts" on the turn. Your play was bad. Period. If he thinks you're bluffing why wouldn't he just call an all-in on the turn? And like someone else said, a free card could give him reason to fold the river.

[TeeSludge 0]

Brabz,Very cool, I graduated from Rutgers-NB last year.

And in a very strict room would be considered a fold out of turn, would be folded and earn you a warning.

Copernicus,I don't give my cards to the dealer, or put them anywhere near the muck. I do this on occasion after making a bet on the river. I know the rules of the casinos that I play at, and I know that my hand wouldn't be folded in this situation.

[Tateisgo 0]

I felt that my hand's own strength and his cynical-callingstation'ish play would lead him to call me down regardless of improvement.

If this is your read on him, then a re-raise on the turn, then all-in on the safe card on the river will accomplish the same results with less risk.All-in on the turn could also be argued depending on the stack sizes, but this is probably an over-bet so early in the game.

[copernicus 0]

Brabz,Very cool, I graduated from Rutgers-NB last year.

And in a very strict room would be considered a fold out of turn, would be folded and earn you a warning.

Copernicus,I don't give my cards to the dealer, or put them anywhere near the muck. I do this on occasion after making a bet on the river. I know the rules of the casinos that I play at, and I know that my hand wouldn't be folded in this situation.

Motions like that in turn are ok. out of turn you will at least get a warning at most Vegas casinos.

[shpaget 0]

I'm up in Rutgers-NB Tremomey.I find it hard to believe that a creative bet in No-Limit is 'pure idiocy'. I may have taken a risk letting him get a free card to outdraw me, but the vast majority of the time he won't get that card, and if I had simply moved all-in after the harmless river card that didn't improve his hand, he may have dropped it. He stayed in and busted out thinking I was bluffing because I made an unorthodox move that threw off his perceptions and understanding of what I might hold.

Umm...no.You've already said the big thing against him is his tendency to believe he isn't beat, so, if you are correct in that assessment he would definitely call an all-in river bet, ESPECIALLY with such a rag.In either case, either going all-in blind before the river card turns, or going all-in after seeing the 3 of hearts, you have announced that you made your hand on, or before, the turn...it comes down to whether or not he believes you.Besides, I don't blame him for not believing you had a hand - an utg limp with KJ, with 6 or more players, is nothing short of terrible. He would call your all-in bet even if you waited to see the card, and you wouldn't be making such a needless risk (a risk that cripples you 10% of the time). You gained NOTHING here...your stupidity did not induce the call, his two-pair and his inherent stubbornness did.You turned poker into bingo...I would love this play more if a ten hit the river.

[brabz 0]

Well, seen as I'm being told I'm garbage for limping in with more people than the OP clearly states, it'sobviously going to end up with more flames. I apologize for my stupid play.Goose and Tremomey, I appreciate the constructive input, and at least full understanding of what I wrote down for how the hand unfolded. Hope you guys have a good one and perhaps I'll see you in the Negreanu Open this evening.Tremomey, what cardrooms in AC do you play in? I'm a big Trop fan, and been turned on to Harrah's as of late. Planning on being down there again the 2nd or so. Maybe I'll pull chips off you pulling the same play, .Have a good one.

[goose 0]

Sorry if I came off soundling like a bit of a prick there... good luck in the NO.Just curious if you still believe it was good play? I'm not looking to argue it any further, just wondering.

[shpaget 0]

Well, seen as I'm being told I'm garbage for limping in with more people than the OP clearly states, it'sobviously going to end up with more flames. I apologize for my stupid play..

Umm...the OP seems to state that there are at least 6 people...doesn't say if there are more, but there are definitely at least 6.

Position: FP I check, 1EP check, 1MP check, LP makes weak bet 75

I count this as four, plus the blinds which don't seem to be mentioned...unless in your universe the blinds are considered late position - by 1EP and 1MP I also conclude there are more than one Early Postion player and more than 1 Middle Position player. Since you are UTG (I'm assuming FP is First Position, that is, first to act preflop) then your flop check comes after the blinds...in other words, your whole description of the hand makes zero sense, as you also say that no one raised preflop, meaning AT LEAST the BB should see the flop.Now, if you were the BB or SB, why didn't you say so? It may be a simple matter of needing a lesson in position terminology. Maybe you're calling the small blind "first position"...you'd be the first person I ever heard call it that.In conclusion...your OP doesn't CLEARLY state anything.You're the one who asked for general commentary on it - I know...you came here to brag and show off and wanted all of us to pat you on the back and tell you what a clever boy you were - sorry to disappoint you. Don't ask questions if you don't want to hear the answers.

[brabz 0]

My position was small blind, there were no preflop raises, and I had first position to act the rest of the hand, which is what I focused on exclusively. I apologize for wording it awkwardly.I didn't want accolades for the hand, just wanted "constructive" feedback and comments about the general play made. General thoughts are it was a bad play because I gave him a free river while he still had a few outs with all my chips committed, which I understand is not a particularly smart play to make. If I had done the same thing in a play knowing I had an unbeatable hand and he was drawing dead, there would have been no risk, and I'd hope he improves/doesn't believe me for the bet and calls it down anyway. I don't mind the criticism, but it's a bit irritating to check back hoping there's good input and simply come across flames and useless posts telling me I'm an a$shole. I'm aware I'm an a$shole thanks, I just wanted input on the general play. Have a good one.-Dave

[shpaget 0]

My position was small blind, there were no preflop raises, and I had first position to act the rest of the hand, which is what I focused on exclusively. I apologize for wording it awkwardly.I didn't want accolades for the hand, just wanted "constructive" feedback and comments about the general play made. General thoughts are it was a bad play because I gave him a free river while he still had a few outs with all my chips committed, which I understand is not a particularly smart play to make. If I had done the same thing in a play knowing I had an unbeatable hand and he was drawing dead, there would have been no risk, and I'd hope he improves/doesn't believe me for the bet and calls it down anyway. I don't mind the criticism, but it's a bit irritating to check back hoping there's good input and simply come across flames and useless posts telling me I'm an a$shole. I'm aware I'm an a$shole thanks, I just wanted input on the general play. Have a good one.-Dave

Then with that in mind the limp for half a bet is fine.My constructive feedback on your blind all-in - don't do that again, especially with such an ugly board. If you want to get cute, after the river comes, tell him you haven't looked at your cards yet, and then go all in.

[Abbaddabba 0]

If I had done the same thing in a play knowing I had an unbeatable hand and he was drawing dead, there would have been no risk

And yet it still would have been a ridiculously bad move.

[TeeSludge 0]

I play almost exclusively at the Trop. You can find me there every Friday for sure and most weekdays. PM me if your planning a trip down.

[Nutcracker 0]

Please don't post here if you are just trying to show off your "expert play" and aren't ready to take some criticism and possibly reevaluate your own play. You're also not going to make it far as a poker player if you aren't able to critically evaluate your play, taking into account others' opinions, especially opinions from people better than you. Many times "flames" are actually full of important info. The 3 replies before your first reply all gave some info to you that you could use. You need to check your ego at the door when you click on a hand you posted and read the replies. It goes a lot better.