need help with starting hands

[ddudley 0]

I'm just getting started with learning how to play O8. I've only logged about 40 hours of micro-limit (mostly .25/.5 and .5/1). Through the first 40 hours I'm still down, of course, but I'm a lot better than when I started.I've breifly read the SS2 section of O8, Ray Zee's chapter on starting hands, and Phil Hellmuth's section on O8 in PPLtP. I was expecting to see something more like Sklansky's list of HE starting hands and, of course, I was quite disappointed.The best list was in Hellmuth's book but I'm not sure what percentage of starting hands his list makes.I'm hoping you guys can help me out...What is the total number of Omaha starting hands?How would I figure out how many hands to count for AA2X?How would I figure out how many hands to count for A2XX?

[ddudley 0]

OK, let me take a stab at the total starting hands...If I were going to figure out how many total starting hands were possible in HE. I would take one of the 52 cards and pair it up with one of the 51 left in the deck. Then I would do that for each one of the cards, so...52 X 51 = 2652So, if that's correct then I think you can do the same sort of thing with a 4 card starting hand.52 X 51 X 50 X 49 = 6,497,400Holy cow, that seems high, but maybe it's right.Feel free to point out anything I did wrong.

[akishore 0]

for now...http://www.thepokerforum.com/omahahilosystem.htmaseem

[ddudley 0]

Since nobody else has, I'll take a shot at calculating the first 2 hands:AA2XThere are 6 combinations of pairs. There are 4 twos and 49 other cards after you have used those 3.This doesn't address AA2A and AA22. I'm not sure if thos are playable hands or not, but for the moment, lets just assume they are and include them for this calculation.6 X 4 X 49 = 1176A2XXThere are 16 combinations of A2. Once those 2 cards are used there are 50 left in the deck and so...16 X 50 X 49 = 39200There are some combinations that should be subtracted out because the are duplicated in the first calculation. Maybe someone else can figure that out.Let me know if I've made any mistakes.

[ddudley 0]

for now...http://www.thepokerforum.com/omahahilosystem.htmaseem

Aseem,I've moved this discussion to here:http://fullcontactpoker.com/poker-forums/v...pic.php?t=36395If you have the time, your input is always appreciated.

[Vman96 0]

Since nobody else has, I'll take a shot at calculating the first 2 hands:AA2XThere are 6 combinations of pairs. There are 4 twos and 49 other cards after you have used those 3.This doesn't address AA2A and AA22. I'm not sure if thos are playable hands or not, but for the moment, lets just assume they are and include them for this calculation.6 X 4 X 49 = 1176

This is close to right. But X should not be an A or 2. So it should be 24*44 = 1056And A2XX is not quite right. To truly be A2XX....XX should not have an A or 2 in it.so 16 combinations of A2for XX we have 44*43/2! = 946 combinationsThis yields 16*946 = 15,136 combinations of A2XXTotal hand combinations is 52*51*50*59/4! = 270,725So a naked A2, or A2XX should happen about 5.59% of the time.AA2 or A22 each will happen 1056/270,725 = 0.390% or 1 in 256 eachAAA2 or A222 each will happen 16/270,725AA22 will happen 36/270,725So the overall cominations that have A2 in them are 15,136 + 2*1056 + 2*16 + 36 = 17,316So the probability of getting any type of A2 is 17,316/270,725 = 0.06396or about 1 in 15.6

[Wintermute 0]

I don't play much limit O8 these days, but when I did I always tried to keep the Hutchinson hand values in mind when I was considering hand selection. It's not a perfect system but the general spirit of it is good; you might discover, for example, that some hands you play but may suspect are marginal are actually garbage when rated via Hutchinson. This was my experience with A5xx suited hands. I'm guessing you're familiar with this system (if not, just google Hutchinson system), but revisiting it from time to time may be useful.

[Valuecall 0]

I thought I already replied on this thread -- but it must have been a similar one.My suggestions for learning LO8-Read all the articles at o8poker.com-Read the LO8 articles at playwinningpoker.com-Read the posts here (warning - there's lots of Pot LImit talk out there)-Learn the hutchison point count system-Join Party or Paradise poker for some of the most active low-limit LO8 games-Don't kick the dog when your nut scooper hand gets beat hi and quartered on the river.

[ddudley 0]

for now...http://www.thepokerforum.com/omahahilosystem.htmaseem

Hey dude,My pre-flop play has greatly improved since I copied this system to an index card and now keep in front of me when I play. I'm trying to get my VP$IP down below 20%. I'm sure I was over 50% before I started using this and PT Omaha.I still suck hard after the flop, but one thing at a time I guess.As usual, thanks for the good advice.

[ddudley 0]

Oh, I did have a couple questions about starting hands... Before the flop, if someone raises before me how many points should I have to call the raise?Should I reraise with a hand like A23S or just call and hope more people get in the pot?

[navybuttons 16]

Oh, I did have a couple questions about starting hands... Before the flop, if someone raises before me how many points should I have to call the raise?Should I reraise with a hand like A23S or just call and hope more people get in the pot?

as you'll read on other posts on this forum, raising is determined by the table and the goals for the hand. if you want to isolate the first raiser then you raise. (with A23S you actually probably want more people in the pot).also it depends on the other raiser. if he'll raise with any high high hand you need to take that into consideration. if he'll only raise with A23Xds then you need to be aware of that. with O8 there is not many real definative answers to most questions. most answers are real game specific and knowing how many points your hand would need to be to reraise or just call is just too table specific.play a million hands and you'll know the answer. :-)

[ddudley 0]

Oh, I did have a couple questions about starting hands... Before the flop, if someone raises before me how many points should I have to call the raise?Should I reraise with a hand like A23S or just call and hope more people get in the pot?

as you'll read on other posts on this forum, raising is determined by the table and the goals for the hand. if you want to isolate the first raiser then you raise. (with A23S you actually probably want more people in the pot).also it depends on the other raiser. if he'll raise with any high high hand you need to take that into consideration. if he'll only raise with A23Xds then you need to be aware of that. with O8 there is not many real definative answers to most questions. most answers are real game specific and knowing how many points your hand would need to be to reraise or just call is just too table specific.play a million hands and you'll know the answer. :-)

Only 997,500 hands to go! Sweet, I'm almost there.

[Fritzmania 0]

for now...http://www.thepokerforum.com/omahahilosystem.htmaseem

Hey dude,My pre-flop play has greatly improved since I copied this system to an index card and now keep in front of me when I play. I'm trying to get my VP$IP down below 20%. I'm sure I was over 50% before I started using this and PT Omaha.I still suck hard after the flop, but one thing at a time I guess.As usual, thanks for the good advice.

Do not become too obsessed with your VPIP. Omaha 8/b is a post flop game. I will call predictable players' raises when I'm holding 2-3-5-6 since I am confident in my post-flop play. If you can get away from a hand, you can literally play almost any hand in Omaha...I truly mean that. When I started, I was at the .25/.50 . tables. I now play up to $10-$20 regularly (and will play $30-$60, but those games do not form online very often). When you get better, you even get to [gasp] learn when and how to bluff.Omaha 8/b is a feel game. In almost every hand I'm in, I can tell you exactly who is playing for the low, when the high is being split, when someone is on a bad low, etc. It takes a lot of practice, but if you really dedicate yourself, this isthe game to make money at. Good luck.

[ddudley 0]

for now...http://www.thepokerforum.com/omahahilosystem.htmaseem

Hey dude,My pre-flop play has greatly improved since I copied this system to an index card and now keep in front of me when I play. I'm trying to get my VP$IP down below 20%. I'm sure I was over 50% before I started using this and PT Omaha.I still suck hard after the flop, but one thing at a time I guess.As usual, thanks for the good advice.

Do not become too obsessed with your VPIP. Omaha 8/b is a post flop game. I will call predictable players' raises when I'm holding 2-3-5-6 since I am confident in my post-flop play. If you can get away from a hand, you can literally play almost any hand in Omaha...I truly mean that. When I started, I was at the .25/.50 . tables. I now play up to $10-$20 regularly (and will play $30-$60, but those games do not form online very often). When you get better, you even get to [gasp] learn when and how to bluff.Omaha 8/b is a feel game. In almost every hand I'm in, I can tell you exactly who is playing for the low, when the high is being split, when someone is on a bad low, etc. It takes a lot of practice, but if you really dedicate yourself, this isthe game to make money at. Good luck.

How long have you been playing O8? How many hands have you played, about?

[Fritzmania 0]

I honestly only learned how to play Omaha about 5 months ago. I had played live with friends a few times before that, but nothing serious. I just picked up on the game very quickly and have had a lot of success. As far as how many hands I've played, I couldn't tell you. I actually stopped using Omaha Tracker because I found that it made me too formulaic in my play. Not until I started to play more by feel did I really start to see some serious wins and started to move up in limits. I have been playing everyday, so I'm sure I've logged quite a few hands.You have to really observe players intensely at the table to pick up on their tendencies. Once you get that down, you'll carve up this game.

[Chamonyx 0]

for now...http://www.thepokerforum.com/omahahilosystem.htmaseem

Hey dude,My pre-flop play has greatly improved since I copied this system to an index card and now keep in front of me when I play. I'm trying to get my VP$IP down below 20%. I'm sure I was over 50% before I started using this and PT Omaha.I still suck hard after the flop, but one thing at a time I guess.As usual, thanks for the good advice.

Do not become too obsessed with your VPIP. Omaha 8/b is a post flop game. I will call predictable players' raises when I'm holding 2-3-5-6 since I am confident in my post-flop play. If you can get away from a hand, you can literally play almost any hand in Omaha

For beginners, making the right decisions after the flop can be tough. If you concentrate on hand selection, then you are not going to find yourself in those marginal decision situations later in the hand. If you have started off with 'blanket hand criteria' and are ready to loosen up a bit, start playing a few more speculativ hands rom LP.