whose the donk in this hand? hope it is not me

[SCYUKON 0]

Hi All. New member. Been lurking for months. Taking the plunge.Playing for around a year now. Various success (won a couple of 1 buck and 3 buck 1700 player tournies on pstars). Big deal.Anyways....The other night I am playing in a 400 fpp turbo qualifer for the Sunday tourney. It is late in the tourney and I am in third place out of 40 remaining. The 4th place person is also at my table, two seats beyond me.We each have about 25000 in chips and the average is around 8000 or so. Top 9 qualify for the 215 sunday tourney on pstars.At any rate, I am in the cutoff, Mr. Donk (my pet name for him until proved otherwise) is in the small blind, and the big blind has not been doing much and has about 6000 chips left. Blinds are 1000/2000.So it is folded to me with 78 off. Decide to make a steal attempt, since only person at table who can hurt me is in small blind (Mr. Donk). I raise to 6000. Mr. Donk in small blind decides to call, and BB foldsFlop comes j 8 rag rainbow. Mr. Donk bets out 6000. I had seen him bluff off half his stack earlier with 2 3 diamonds (complete bluff) so suspect he is making a play on me. Reraise to 18000, and he pushes all in. Felt pot committed and had 2nd top pair and gutshot straight draw. So called.He flips over j 10 off! no help on turn or river, so his hand held up.But what the hell was he doing in that hand with j 10 off? I was the only person at the table who could take him out and had been on a good run of cards, so no reason to think I was making a play. Plus top 9 made it and i was third at the time and he was 4th!So I was pissed, made a small comeback, but eventually blinded out in 20th spot.Was it a donk play to call in small blind with 10 J off? I felt like a donk for thinking he was bluffing, but what the hell. I would not have minded if he turned over a decent pocket pair or 10 10 up to AA, but J10 off? I thought it was retarded. But I have only a year of play.Help oh wizened vets.ThanksSCYUKON.

[ncperrotta069 0]

i dont disagree with his call with J10 trying to hit a flop and i dont disagree with your post-flop play with middle pair and straight draw especially if he was bluffing like you said he was during the tournament

[nell789 0]

Hi All. New member. Been lurking for months. Taking the plunge.Playing for around a year now. Various success (won a couple of 1 buck and 3 buck 1700 player tournies on pstars). Big deal.Anyways....The other night I am playing in a 400 fpp turbo qualifer for the Sunday tourney. It is late in the tourney and I am in third place out of 40 remaining. The 4th place person is also at my table, two seats beyond me.We each have about 25000 in chips and the average is around 8000 or so. Top 9 qualify for the 215 sunday tourney on pstars.At any rate, I am in the cutoff, Mr. Donk (my pet name for him until proved otherwise) is in the small blind, and the big blind has not been doing much and has about 6000 chips left. Blinds are 1000/2000.So it is folded to me with 78 off. Decide to make a steal attempt, since only person at table who can hurt me is in small blind (Mr. Donk). I raise to 6000. Mr. Donk in small blind decides to call, and BB foldsFlop comes j 8 rag rainbow. Mr. Donk bets out 6000. I had seen him bluff off half his stack earlier with 2 3 diamonds (complete bluff) so suspect he is making a play on me. Reraise to 18000, and he pushes all in. Felt pot committed and had 2nd top pair and gutshot straight draw. So called.He flips over j 10 off! no help on turn or river, so his hand held up.But what the hell was he doing in that hand with j 10 off? I was the only person at the table who could take him out and had been on a good run of cards, so no reason to think I was making a play. Plus top 9 made it and i was third at the time and he was 4th!So I was censored, made a small comeback, but eventually blinded out in 20th spot.Was it a donk play to call in small blind with 10 J off? I felt like a donk for thinking he was bluffing, but what the hell. I would not have minded if he turned over a decent pocket pair or 10 10 up to AA, but J10 off? I thought it was retarded. But I have only a year of play.Help oh wizened vets.ThanksSCYUKON.

I'm not wizened vet, but I think playing 87 off is a huge mistake in that spot. You're third in chips in a qualifier...there's no reason to make any plays like that, you'd be better served to just play ABC poker and cruise till later on in the tourny. no sense in risking your stack, especially when you have more than 3 times the average stack.

[dead money 1]

His play wasnt that good, but your raise on the flop was horrible. You did what you are complaining about him doing. You got overinvolved with a big stack. Why would you try to steal the pot from him after he shows strength on the flop. Just because you think he is bluffing this time is not a good reason to put most of your stack in the pot.

[PFunk 0]

How is holding 7 8 off with a flop of J 8 X a gutshot straight draw?You needed runner runner-Im not going to call you a donk, but Im not going to call him one either, lets just put it that way.....

[SCYUKON 0]

Thanks for the feedback. I think you have answered my core question which is, if I was in the SB with j10 off, and he had raised, should I call?My gut tells me no, and that is why I am so angry. Turns out from your replies that it may have been a good play on his part....Thanks for your thoughts. Helpful.SC

[alf13 0]

His play wasnt that good, but your raise on the flop was horrible. You did what you are complaining about him doing. You got overinvolved with a big stack. Why would you try to steal the pot from him after he shows strength on the flop. Just because you think he is bluffing this time is not a good reason to put most of your stack in the pot.

I agree with this......you sir.....were the DONK.....the guy played his hand aggressively and you called off your stack with second pair...turd kicker.....gut shot cum shot......You donked out dude....that was a blow up...Matusow style.There ya go....I am done ripping ya..... :wink:

[SCYUKON 0]

I shoulda turtled , but my experience in these is that one has to stay aggressive or you get blinded out quick (blinds increase every 5 min).So this is what Matusow does huh. Great play then instances of brain death. Oh well at least I have not been busted for selling coke yet....not likely to happen anytime soon.I feel welcome. Call me Mr. Donk then.Thanks for the abuse. I seem to have earned it. LOL :shock:

[Gram Green 0]

With the BB only having 3 bbs sitting in front of him I would never raise with 7 8. I think you're overestimating your fold equity. And clearly you don't have enough chips to be making fancy plays (as evidenced by the fact that you suddenly found yourself all in on the flop without wanting to be.)

[SCYUKON 0]

With the BB only having 3 bbs sitting in front of him I would never raise with 7 8. I think you're overestimating your fold equity. And clearly you don't have enough chips to be making fancy plays (as evidenced by the fact that you suddenly found yourself all in on the flop without wanting to be.)

So can you explain this concept to me please. I thought that by putting the BB all in if he called my raise that he would fold all but premium hands, and even if he had something decent, I still likely had 2 live cards. So the worst I expected to come out of the hand was with 19000 or so in chips, and then would have slowed down. Obviously things took a real ugly turn, but I though the idea with a relatively bigger stack was to put pressure on the small stacks just trying to hang around....doh...

[pmc 0]

i think a good thing to do is throw the hand away pre flop. u had plenty of chips versus the size of the blinds. but thats one style. u played the aggressive style wich is good too. yur mistake was when he bet on the flop. THROW YUR HAND AWAY. who cares if he is possibly out playing u. u would have still had 19,000 in chips and find a better spot to utilize yur ammo. playing good poker is not about being a hero. its about control and management. always try to find the positives in bad situations. u made a big mistake but u were aggressive. thats a heck of a lot better than playin too tight and playing not to lose. i like yur game, just learn how to duck sometimes and most importantly, dont let yur ego get in the way.

[Gram Green 0]

He'll be getting good odds on his call.It takes a pretty bad weak-tight player in the BB not to call most of the time. Unless there's some kind of bubble situation, if I'm the BB I call almost every time here.Of course I'm not often in this situation, trying to be first-in when I'm the shortstack.

[SCYUKON 0]

i think a good thing to do is throw the hand away pre flop. u had plenty of chips versus the size of the blinds. but thats one style. u played the aggressive style wich is good too. yur mistake was when he bet on the flop. THROW YUR HAND AWAY. who cares if he is possibly out playing u. u would have still had 19,000 in chips and find a better spot to utilize yur ammo. playing good poker is not about being a hero. its about control and management. always try to find the positives in bad situations. u made a big mistake but u were aggressive. thats a heck of a lot better than playin too tight and playing not to lose. i like yur game, just learn how to duck sometimes and most importantly, dont let yur ego get in the way.

Thanks for that, I appreciate it. I enjoy playing much more after a reread of Super System II than I do of TJ Cloutier's book. I hate sitting for hours on end waiting for pocket bullets, or kk.Your point is bang on. In the tourneys that I did win, I was able to back down in key situations, and rebound quite nicely later on. You are bang on about the ego thing. Additionally, for some retarded reason, I always think that people are making a move on me, giving them WWWWAAAYYY to much credit when all that has happened is that they simply have better cards at the moment. I think I think too much.You advice is much appreciated, as are all the other comments so far. No idea I would get so much help in so little time. Thanks everyone!SCps. from Edmonton. Don't hate me

[SCYUKON 0]

But after all of this, I still think that it was a donk call in the small blind, to risk 1/4 of your chip stack with J10 off, when everyone else at the table had 4000 to 8000 chips. I admit i screwed up post flop (i see that very clearly now :oops: ) but I always thought a key concept was don't mess with the other chip leaders at a table. Kind of like professional courtesy if you will (unless you wake up with pocket bullets or something so nice).Hee Hee. Gonna get flamed again! Ducking!SC

[pmc 0]

well, i'm sure u know u dont mess with the other big stack because he can hurt u. not professional courtesy. right? yes, his call was terrible. if he reraised u with that hand, i would totally respect that. a move like that would be one of the highest forms of poker but its so difficult to pull that trigger. i never pull moves like that because i dont think its neccesary to win but it is something i'm contemplating. contemplating is the pre step to doing. a reraise with a j 10 in the small blind is what guys like juanda and matasou etc. do. i had a few of those kind of oppuritunities in my last tourney but its not in my arsenal just yet. i'm playing a 1000 dollar entry tourney this sunday. i think i'm going to start playin with some more guts. i already have guts but i'm talking about guts in the highest form. u know, an attitude that says screw all u guys. u know what i'm sayin? u should read my post called "bad play". give a comment

[SCYUKON 0]

well, i'm sure u know u dont mess with the other big stack because he can hurt u. not professional courtesy. right? yes, his call was terrible. if he reraised u with that hand, i would totally respect that. a move like that would be one of the highest forms of poker but its so difficult to pull that trigger. i never pull moves like that because i dont think its neccesary to win but it is something i'm contemplating. contemplating is the pre step to doing. a reraise with a j 10 in the small blind is what guys like juanda and matasou etc. do. i had a few of those kind of oppuritunities in my last tourney but its not in my arsenal just yet. i'm playing a 1000 dollar entry tourney this sunday. i think i'm going to start playin with some more guts. i already have guts but i'm talking about guts in the highest form. u know, an attitude that says screw all u guys. u know what i'm sayin? u should read my post called "bad play". give a comment

Will do. I was watching the Foxwoods tourney where Tuan Le was absolutely fearless, and while he sucked out more than a few times, he had everyone absolutely terrified of him.It is quite simple in my mind, and often times I have played my best this way: Play like you really don't care about the money. Enables you to make plays like the over the top with J 10 off. I have done crazy crap like that late in tourneys and pulled it off. Quite a thrill and also helps get over bad runs of cards. Will look for your post and comment.SC

[pmc 0]

sucking out sure isnt against the law. i used to play so tight in tourneys until i realized that when u finally get the good hand but yur so short stacked and the big blind with a big stack calls yur piddly all in with a 10 6 suited and cracks yur pocket aces. then i started realizing that u cant rely on cards. there is too much luck in texas holdem. with that being said, make luck work for u. its definately a factor that needs to be exploited. so lets say the button raises u and u come over the top with j 10 off suit and he goes all in and now yur comitted and u call. who cares if he has ace king or even pocket aces. u make a straight or two pair on him and now yur a monster chip leader. u get knocked out then oh well. eventually if u play enough tourneys, you'll have yur day when u suck out and come out on top. but when u do get knocked out making the big play, walk away feeling good about making the big play that only the great players have the guts to make. everyone knows how to play now so u have to seperate yurself and be willing to do what these so called "smart players" cant do. its all about guts now.

[SCYUKON 0]

sucking out sure isnt against the law. i used to play so tight in tourneys until i realized that when u finally get the good hand but yur so short stacked and the big blind with a big stack calls yur piddly all in with a 10 6 suited and cracks yur pocket aces. then i started realizing that u cant rely on cards. there is too much luck in texas holdem. with that being said, make luck work for u. its definately a factor that needs to be exploited. so lets say the button raises u and u come over the top with j 10 off suit and he goes all in and now yur comitted and u call. who cares if he has ace king or even pocket aces. u make a straight or two pair on him and now yur a monster chip leader. u get knocked out then oh well. eventually if u play enough tourneys, you'll have yur day when u suck out and come out on top. but when u do get knocked out making the big play, walk away feeling good about making the big play that only the great players have the guts to make. everyone knows how to play now so u have to seperate yurself and be willing to do what these so called "smart players" cant do. its all about guts now.

I hear ya man. We are on the same page there. Anyone can sit patiently and wait for the AA KK things, but the guts to bluff when the card ain't coming (and knowing who to pull it on) is the difference, from what I have seen so far. And like I said, if you have shown that you are willing to push with the worst of it, and make it, that strikes a good bit of terror into the other plays. Pure Doyle there, protecting the boys you send into battle. Intimidation definitely works.Has worked for Doyle, Unger, Mortensen, Hansen, Negreanu, you name em (all anti-tight players). My 2 cents. GL with the fearless play man.SC

[SCYUKON 0]

One final thought on this otherwise dead horse. If I had AA down to JJ, 88 (for trips), KJ, or even QJ and had reraised to 18000, and this dude had called like he did, would not most of you consider that he was a major donk for calling my reraise? In all of those scenarios, he would have been crushed.In other words, coming over the top of him like that should have taken him more than 2 seconds to call (which it didn't) with J10. There was like no hesitation at all. Its like he never even considered this possibility (which is obviously what I was representing). That is why I still think the dude is a major donk. I dream of getting a repeat chance to expose his Donkiness :twisted: CheersSCp.s. I misspoke earlier when I said gutshot. I should have said "backdoor"p.s.s. is it possible I am playing at the level the pmc is speaking of but made the mistake of trying to make this play on too stupid of an opponent? That would really make me a donk, kinda like trying to pull off a bluff in a 1/2 limit game :wink:

[pmc 0]

thanks, i'll take all the luck i can get. did u see the look on matasous face when he went all in with a gutshot against the guy with pocket tens at the world series? the pocket tens folded to the heat and matasou said it felt so good to pull that trigger and be right. the look on his face said it all. that boy is hungry. lederer might be able to look into yur soul but matasou "wants" yur soul. personally myself, i aint scared of nobody. i might fold a bit more than the big names do but i play the toughest games here in the bay area and i been winning for the last few years. cash games r about playin tight but these tourneys r about making it personall and goin after people. u can play smart but playin the role of the human land mine gets people so scared of u. just like u said, when they see yur willing to die with the junk hand, they get scared and that allows u to take complete control. the best no limit tournament player i ever seen is tony g from australia. he uses all the weapons he can. math, guts, trash talking, reverse lies and reverse truths. surendar sunar got lucky to beat tony g. tony is a high level player

[Davin 0]

One final thought on this otherwise dead horse. If I had AA down to JJ, or even 88 (for trips), and had reraised to 18000, and this dude had called like he did, would not most of you consider that he was a major donk for calling my reraise? In all of those scenarios, he would have been crushed.In other words, coming over the top of him like that should have taken him more than 2 seconds to call (which it didn't) with J10. There was like no hesitation at all. Its like he never even considered this possibility (which is obviously what I was representing). That is why I still think the dude is a major donk. I dream of getting a repeat chance to expose his Donkiness :twisted: CheersSCp.s. I misspoke earlier when I said gutshot. I should have said "backdoor"p.s.s. is it possible I am playing at the level the pmc is speaking of but made the mistake of trying to make this play on too stupid of an opponent? That would really make me a donk, kinda like trying to pull off a bluff in a 1/2 limit game :wink:

another theory may be that he's well aware of his table image. he knows that he's shown down a bluff earlier and that he's most likely perceived as loose and reckless from you.his instant-call could be because he read you for what you held, a hand worse than his that you didnt want to relinquish because you thought that he was bluffing. i personally have a very loose table image, so when i hit top pair, i get paid off by mid pairs and pp. very often because they simply dont believe me. this could very be the case here.his pf call is loose, but he might have (correctly) thought that both his cards were live and that he might be 50/50 w/ you if you had pp. if this were the case, he's justified in calling your raise bc he knows that if he hits top pair, he may very well get paid bc of his table image

[SCYUKON 0]

Plus it is so much more fun to play that way. In the tournies I won, I built a really big stack early, playing about everything, and man once I got a big stack, there was hell to pay. Everyone got put to the test, and most failed. The larger the stack gets then the bigger the bully. Love the aggression that the big stack affords one.I like to play that way in Sit'n'gos as well, really tight until make the money (unless hit a cheap flop mid size suited connector) then turn into an absolute monster.Reread Doyle's section in Super System II again if you get the chance. Might spur you on to level's of aggression you have never dreamed of (or bust out on 2nd hand, but we don't care right?). Like 50 says, Get rich or die tryin'SC

[SCYUKON 0]

Quoting Davin:another theory may be that he's well aware of his table image. he knows that he's shown down a bluff earlier and that he's most likely perceived as loose and reckless from you.his instant-call could be because he read you for what you held, a hand worse than his that you didnt want to relinquish because you thought that he was bluffing. i personally have a very loose table image, so when i hit top pair, i get paid off by mid pairs and pp. very often because they simply dont believe me. this could very be the case here.his pf call is loose, but he might have (correctly) thought that both his cards were live and that he might be 50/50 w/ you if you had pp. if this were the case, he's justified in calling your raise bc he knows that if he hits top pair, he may very well get paid bc of his table imageBut at least tell me that if you were in the BB in that situation, you might have thought about your call for all your chips for more than 2 seconds. There is no way he could have come to that conclusion that quickly, given my relatively tight play and hitting good cards up to that point. No way. Pure recklessness.SC

[shpaget 0]

you donked it up good.You are in 3rd overall and the top 9 qualify and you have 3x the average chipstack...the avg chipstack is 4x the BB - in other words, there are going to be a lot of allins coming up and a lot of players dropping like flies. Let that wave pass, and only call them with strong hands.You have no reason to play anything other than AA, KK, QQ, AK at this stage, for at least a couple blind levels (or 10 minutes).In your position, let everyone else play bingo - even if 20 guys get knocked out and you drop to 18000-20000 in chips due to blinds, you're still above average, and more than likely still in the top 9.Take risks with small chip stacks, not big chip stacks.If you are inclined to steal then let him take the pot after he calls and then bets - if he's going to lead into the raiser, let him take it...what are you putting him on? Do you really think he's CALLING with 23 in order to lead with a bluff? It takes a good player to fold a good hand...and a bad player to play a bad hand.You had this tourney in the palm of your hand, and you gave it away.

[Ebonwoulfe 0]

Yeah it's obvious to you now, but 87 on the button could be played a little better. First off, figure out where you are.You have 12x the big blind in your stack and you're on the button. If the pot contains 3000 in blinds and antes, you have a little more than 8 times the pot in your stack. This means you can last 8 more rounds at the current blind level, and you are under some pressure to play some hands and win some chips. This is a fine situation, though, considering that you are still in third overall. Many other players are in much worse situations.With that in mind, we go to the hand. Everyone folds to you, on the button with 87. You think about who is left in the hand - a short stack, and the only guy at the table who can cripple you (although any time you put chips in the pot without getting any back really hurts). You decide to raise it to 3x the big blind, and the short stack folds and the big blind calls. You connect just well enough with the flop that you almost have to put the chips in the middle - there's at least 13k out there, 18k in your stack.I think a much better play is to either go all-in immediately, or to fold.You are in a position in the tourney where cautious play is the way to go. You're on a big stack compared to the other players, but you are in a spot where pretty much any raise preflop means you're committed - in this case, you put in 25% of your stack. It's going to be hard to justify connecting with the flop in any way and folding after the flop. How do you avoid this situatioin? You either don't play the hand, or you raise all-in preflop to exert the maximum pressure on the blinds. You want to avoid the situation you found yourself in. It would be better to win the pot without a fight.So is this the spot to go all-in, hoping they fold? Let's look at who is left - a short stack and a big stack. Short stacks are nearing desperation mode, if they aren't already in it. They are bad people to try to bully out of a pot, since they might just call with anything. The other player is a big stack in relation to the other players at the table, but in pretty much the same 8x the pot situation as you are that dictates cautious play. He can be an awful player to try to get out of the pot, since he can cripple you if he has a hand. However, he is unlikely to call without a good hand, since calling an all-in means he HAS to win or he's out. This fact pretty much dictates the all-in move.Finally, what is our hand? It is 87. If it gets called, you are behind but hopefully live. It would be really nice if it were something like A or K high, just to give us some high card value.In conclusion, I think 3x the bb raise is not enough. You don't push the harmful stack hard enough to get him to fold exactly the kind of hand he played. As well, if the sb plays he's going to play for any raise. So it might as well be all-in if you really want to steal the blinds, or fold if you want to be cautious.