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[KowboyKoop 0]

Most of the Hellmuth defenders are making an elementary mistake in logic.Because Hellmuth accomplished so much in the PAST does not automatically mean that he is one of the best NLHE tourney players NOW.For example, Joe Cassidy and David Oppenheim have accomplished relatively little in the poker world in comparison to Daniel Negreanu (no disrespect intended) - yet. But they both beat DN in Limit HE matches and judging from DN's comments they were very ferocious opponents and didn't simply get lucky.You see what I am saying? Lack of credentials does not necessarily equal lack of skill. Similarly, impressive performance in the past does not necessary equal superlative CURRENT ability.The Hellmuthian railbird club should listen to what Harry and Daniel, people who've sat at the table with Phil many times, have to say about his abilities.

I am a Hellmuth defender, and I am NOT missing any logic. Yes, Hellmuth has not accomplished as much as he did in the past. That is b/c tourney fields are larger, so EVERY pro accomplishs less now then he would if he were playing in the 70s or 80s. The fields at these tourneys are much larger and thus, there are less tourneys to be won per player, since the fields are monstrous compared to what they used to be. I am not saying Phil is currently playing better than anyone else in the world. HOWEVER, everyone knows that poker is a long term game, so you can't simply say that because he hasn't won a ton of tournaments over the past couple of years that he is not any good any more, which is what MANY of you are saying (not all, not DN...) Phil has had decent results this year, and in '03 he won two bracelets. No, those aren't mind-boggling, but they are accomplishments that add to his very impressive poker resume. Thus, Hellmuth is a top poker pro. Top 5? No, PROBABLY not. Top 10. Maybe. (talking just about No Limit).

[doublemeup 0]

OK, but I don't know...Phil vs. Harry in all forms of hold'em? I mean no offense Phil has accomplished light years more than Harry all in hold'em.Is Harry a dominate cash player or something that I don't know??I would take Phil in an all holdem series...

i would take phil against any player in the world in hold'em except for the players in the "big game."

Please...according to Daniel there are 59...or more others that are better at Holdem than Philly :shock:

did he really say that? do you have a link? 9 WSOP bracelets, all in Hold'em. No way in hell theres 59 or more better than this man. Maybe 5-10 but not 59.

Phil is a good no limit hold'em tournament player that might rank in the top 60 in the world today. As for cash games, because of his lack of emotional stability and fundamental knowledge I don't know that he could be a winning player above the $30-$60 limit. I think the guy is hilarious and just great for poker, but I don't think he is among the best players in the world today. A kid like Jdags, Erik123, Spirit Rock, Joe Cassidy, Michael "The Grinder" Mizrachi, Erick Lindgren, Martin deKnijff, Allen Cunningham, just to name a few that may have surprised you, would all rank ahead of Phil not only as overall players, but specifically no limit hold'em tournaments. I'd be happy to put my money where my mouth is. Phil did well in the 80's and 90's playing in a totally different world. Back then, there were far fewer great young players in the game with an aggressive style. Today, with so many great young players getting experience online and focused solely on poker, poker, poker, many of them would be great bets against Phil who hasn't played well in several years now for various reasons._________________God Bless, Daniel Negreanu http://fullcontactpoker.com/poker-forums/v...sc&start=40

You make a good point but 9 bracelets is pretty damn impressive. No matter what you do, you can't deny that fact. If you think "the grinder" is better than Phil than you're crazy. Some of the others i can see but to even mention him with Phil is idiotic. How many tournaments has this guy won compared to Phil?

[SportsW234 0]

Mike Matusow at a final table = good TV.Phil Hellmuth at a final table = great TV.The two of them at a final table together as the two chip leaders with Hoyt Corkins on Phil's direct left to boot = classic TV.

[Municipal Hare 0]

Mike Matusow at a final table = good TV.Phil Hellmuth at a final table = great TV.The two of them at a final table together as the two chip leaders with Hoyt Corkins on Phil's direct left to boot = classic TV.

Given their history, any big pots involving Hellmuth/Corkins, Mouth/Dannenannnmann or Mouth/Hellmuth ought to be total fireworks displays.

[blueodum 0]

If you mean by being in the top 60 is very good, then yes I agree PH is CURRENTLY a very good NLHE tourney player. That is essentially what Daniel has said. Incidently some posters have referred to this statement of Daniel's as ridiculous or the like.Unfortunately for them, they have not played against Phil on the tourney circuit (Daniel and Harry have) and so their opinion on this subject (as well as my own) doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

[Mikeh77 0]

I just hope ESPN security confiscated Dannenman (or Dannendonk whichever you may prefer) cellphone so we dont get anymore calls about how cool he is to his buds whenever he wins a pot.

[Mikeh77 0]

If you mean by being in the top 60 is very good, then yes I agree PH is CURRENTLY a very good NLHE tourney player. That is essentially what Daniel has said. Incidently some posters have referred to this statement of Daniel's as ridiculous or the like.Unfortunately for them, they have not played against Phil on the tourney circuit (Daniel and Harry have) and so their opinion on this subject (as well as my own) doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

Its about results and history...I didnt have to play against Ungar to know that he won 3 titles or play against Raymer to know that he won in 2004.Meaning, with his performance the last few years (dont make me recount it again) Phil surely has show he hasnt "lost it" and is still a world class player. ItAgain, Daniel mentioned CURRENTLY in NL HOLDEM.

[doublemeup 0]

Mike Matusow at a final table = good TV.Phil Hellmuth at a final table = great TV.The two of them at a final table together as the two chip leaders with Hoyt Corkins on Phil's direct left to boot = classic TV.

Given their history, any big pots involving Hellmuth/Corkins, Mouth/Dannenannnmann or Mouth/Hellmuth ought to be total fireworks displays.

[da_beartrap 0]

i know phil has won in the past, but what has he done in the last few years... he WAS great... but is he still? he seems to only do well in events that have a lot of pros or players who play well and make standard plays not unconventional ones, like amateurs... the only events he's done well in recently, heads up championship... against mostly pros, the omaha event which was more pros than amatuers and this event, which is mostly pros and players who are better than average and dont go all in... with say K J. thats how i feel, however he is very funny to watch and watching matusow annoy him at a final table is very good tv, i bet espn is creaming their pants they got this lucky, especially wit doyle going out on the bubble probably makes good tv as well.

[KowboyKoop 0]

i know phil has won in the past' date=' but what has he done in the last few years... he WAS great... but is he still? he seems to only do well in events that have a lot of pros or players who play well and make standard plays not unconventional ones, like amateurs... the only events he's done well in recently, heads up championship... against mostly pros, the omaha event which was more pros than amatuers and this event, which is mostly pros and players who are better than average and dont go all in... with say K J. thats how i feel, however he is very funny to watch and watching matusow annoy him at a final table is very good tv, i bet espn is creaming their pants they got this lucky, especially wit doyle going out on the bubble probably makes good tv as well. [/color']2 bracelets in '03. I BELIEVE two final tables at WSOP in '04. Yeah, and he got sucked out on by a three outer on the ME, that doesn't mean he didn't play well. If he wins that pot, who knows, maybe he goes on to win the thing. Point being, you can't criticize him for not doing well in the ME b/c he got pretty unlucky. Phil has done plenty the past few years, seriously, he hasn't dropped off of the face of the poker world, he is still a top tourney player.

[PAYforUSC 0]

i know phil has won in the past' date=' but what has he done in the last few years... he WAS great... but is he still? he seems to only do well in events that have a lot of pros or players who play well and make standard plays not unconventional ones' date=' like amateurs... the only events he's done well in recently, heads up championship... against mostly pros, the omaha event which was more pros than amatuers and this event, which is mostly pros and players who are better than average and dont go all in... with say K J. thats how i feel, however he is very funny to watch and watching matusow annoy him at a final table is very good tv, i bet espn is creaming their pants they got this lucky, especially wit doyle going out on the bubble probably makes good tv as well. [/color'']2 bracelets in '03. I BELIEVE two final tables at WSOP in '04. Yeah, and he got sucked out on by a three outer on the ME, that doesn't mean he didn't play well. If he wins that pot, who knows, maybe he goes on to win the thing. Point being, you can't criticize him for not doing well in the ME b/c he got pretty unlucky. Phil has done plenty the past few years, seriously, he hasn't dropped off of the face of the poker world, he is still a top tourney player.

even though i hate Kowboy Koop & Phil i have to agree :oops:

[Mikeh77 0]

i know phil has won in the past' date=' but what has he done in the last few years... he WAS great... but is he still? he seems to only do well in events that have a lot of pros or players who play well and make standard plays not unconventional ones, like amateurs... the only events he's done well in recently, heads up championship... against mostly pros, the omaha event which was more pros than amatuers and this event, which is mostly pros and players who are better than average and dont go all in... with say K J. thats how i feel, however he is very funny to watch and watching matusow annoy him at a final table is very good tv, i bet espn is creaming their pants they got this lucky, especially wit doyle going out on the bubble probably makes good tv as well. [/color']I love Phil but I cant wait to see him and Mike go at it.Two douches going mouth to mouth

[KowboyKoop 0]

i know phil has won in the past' date=' but what has he done in the last few years... he WAS great... but is he still? he seems to only do well in events that have a lot of pros or players who play well and make standard plays not unconventional ones' date=' like amateurs... the only events he's done well in recently, heads up championship... against mostly pros, the omaha event which was more pros than amatuers and this event, which is mostly pros and players who are better than average and dont go all in... with say K J. thats how i feel, however he is very funny to watch and watching matusow annoy him at a final table is very good tv, i bet espn is creaming their pants they got this lucky, especially wit doyle going out on the bubble probably makes good tv as well. [/color'']2 bracelets in '03. I BELIEVE two final tables at WSOP in '04. Yeah, and he got sucked out on by a three outer on the ME, that doesn't mean he didn't play well. If he wins that pot, who knows, maybe he goes on to win the thing. Point being, you can't criticize him for not doing well in the ME b/c he got pretty unlucky. Phil has done plenty the past few years, seriously, he hasn't dropped off of the face of the poker world, he is still a top tourney player.

even though i hate Kowboy Koop & Phil i have to agree :oops:

who do you hate more, KowboyKoop, or Phil?? And why?? you shouldn't hate me, I am well liked....

[Municipal Hare 0]

G.

[PAYforUSC 0]

i know phil has won in the past' date=' but what has he done in the last few years... he WAS great... but is he still? he seems to only do well in events that have a lot of pros or players who play well and make standard plays not unconventional ones' date=' like amateurs... the only events he's done well in recently, heads up championship... against mostly pros, the omaha event which was more pros than amatuers and this event, which is mostly pros and players who are better than average and dont go all in... with say K J. thats how i feel, however he is very funny to watch and watching matusow annoy him at a final table is very good tv, i bet espn is creaming their pants they got this lucky, especially wit doyle going out on the bubble probably makes good tv as well. [/color'']2 bracelets in '03. I BELIEVE two final tables at WSOP in '04. Yeah, and he got sucked out on by a three outer on the ME, that doesn't mean he didn't play well. If he wins that pot, who knows, maybe he goes on to win the thing. Point being, you can't criticize him for not doing well in the ME b/c he got pretty unlucky. Phil has done plenty the past few years, seriously, he hasn't dropped off of the face of the poker world, he is still a top tourney player.

even though i hate Kowboy Koop & Phil i have to agree :oops:

who do you hate more, KowboyKoop, or Phil?? And why?? you shouldn't hate me, I am well liked....

I despise anyone who rips my beloved Trojans. it looks like you get the nod Kowboy. FIGHT ON FOR 'OL SC!

[KowboyKoop 0]

i know phil has won in the past' date=' but what has he done in the last few years... he WAS great... but is he still? he seems to only do well in events that have a lot of pros or players who play well and make standard plays not unconventional ones' date=' like amateurs... the only events he's done well in recently, heads up championship... against mostly pros, the omaha event which was more pros than amatuers and this event, which is mostly pros and players who are better than average and dont go all in... with say K J. thats how i feel, however he is very funny to watch and watching matusow annoy him at a final table is very good tv, i bet espn is creaming their pants they got this lucky, especially wit doyle going out on the bubble probably makes good tv as well. [/color'']2 bracelets in '03. I BELIEVE two final tables at WSOP in '04. Yeah, and he got sucked out on by a three outer on the ME, that doesn't mean he didn't play well. If he wins that pot, who knows, maybe he goes on to win the thing. Point being, you can't criticize him for not doing well in the ME b/c he got pretty unlucky. Phil has done plenty the past few years, seriously, he hasn't dropped off of the face of the poker world, he is still a top tourney player.

even though i hate Kowboy Koop & Phil i have to agree :oops:

who do you hate more, KowboyKoop, or Phil?? And why?? you shouldn't hate me, I am well liked....

I despise anyone who rips my beloved Trojans. it looks like you get the nod Kowboy. FIGHT ON FOR 'OL SC!

enjoy USC's streak while it lasts, they are losing in the Rose Bowl and will be just another "good" team next year.ROLL TIDE.

[PAYforUSC 0]

i'll tell you what Kowboy. IF, and that is a big IF, Bama makes it to the BCS championship game let's wager our FCP titles. No more posting under Kowboy Koop or PAYforUSC. i'm sure we can arrange it with the Mods to kill the account along with "charter member privelages" since no new accounts will be taken after this month. Kowboy UP! Good luck newbie.

[KowboyKoop 0]

i'll tell you what Kowboy. IF, and that is a big IF, Bama makes it to the BCS championship game let's wager our FCP titles. No more posting under Kowboy Koop or PAYforUSC. i'm sure we can arrange it with the Mods to kill the account along with "charter member privelages" since no new accounts will be taken after this month. Kowboy UP! Good luck newbie.

well, it is pretty unlikely that Alabama is going to the Rose Bowl, but alright, IF bama plays USC and loses, I'll stop posting under KowboyKoop.however, my post was referring to AFTER this year. All good things must come to an end, and the end is near for USC. I think Texas is a better team, to be quite honest.Also, who you callin a newb, newbie.

[PAYforUSC 0]

i'll tell you what Kowboy. IF, and that is a big IF, Bama makes it to the BCS championship game let's wager our FCP titles. No more posting under Kowboy Koop or PAYforUSC. i'm sure we can arrange it with the Mods to kill the account along with "charter member privelages" since no new accounts will be taken after this month. Kowboy UP! Good luck newbie.

well, it is pretty unlikely that Alabama is going to the Rose Bowl, but alright, IF bama plays USC and loses, I'll stop posting under KowboyKoop.

deal......i hope Texas loses :-)

[PAYforUSC 0]

didn't mean to hijack the TOC thread. regular scheduled programming will resume at 2:00 pm PST tomorrow. Go MOUTH!

[KowboyKoop 0]

i'll tell you what Kowboy. IF, and that is a big IF, Bama makes it to the BCS championship game let's wager our FCP titles. No more posting under Kowboy Koop or PAYforUSC. i'm sure we can arrange it with the Mods to kill the account along with "charter member privelages" since no new accounts will be taken after this month. Kowboy UP! Good luck newbie.

well, it is pretty unlikely that Alabama is going to the Rose Bowl, but alright, IF bama plays USC and loses, I'll stop posting under KowboyKoop.

deal......i hope Texas loses :-)

pretty slim chance that Texas loses to anyone in the Tiny 12 this year.

[solo319 0]

There has to be better things to worry about than the FREAKING ESPN freeroll. PH Chan and Doyle all had pretty good world series overall and also have had a prettty good year overall, lets face it people like watching them on TV. Personally I will be glad to watch Phil at the Final Table it should make for great TV.

[Dirtydutch 8]

I am admittedly a PH fan. There isn’t anyone I’d rather see win this then him or Matusow.

[doublemeup 0]

There has to be better things to worry about than the FREAKING ESPN freeroll. PH Chan and Doyle all had pretty good world series overall and also have had a prettty good year overall, lets face it people like watching them on TV. Personally I will be glad to watch Phil at the Final Table it should make for great TV.

Phil has to be my favorite person to watch on tv. I love watching masters at work like JC, and DB but Phil is just way too entertaining. Phil falling off his chair at the HUC, was great. As Norman Chad would say "...phil helmuth completes me"

[smokingfast420 0]

I can't wait to see this final table on t.v. Matusow and Hellmuth with two big stacks. Not to mention phils old buddy hoyt corkins. I wish more players talked shit like hellmuth and matusow do. Its good for the game because it makes such great tv.