could i...should i have folded?

[kouta43 0]

home game, 1/2 blinds, stacks are about 50-60 each early on. 5 handed, i getdealt J Q o/s and raise to 6. My friends fiancee who has never played holdem before calls from the sb, as does my mate the BB, who is reasonably new but at leas knows the basics. Flop, 9 J Q. the sb now asks what beats what, and wants a ranking of poker hands...is she on a flush draw.. straight draw...has she flopped a straight?? she bets 10, BB folds, now upto me. something tells me she has k 10, but there are so many other hands she could have. I really cant decided what to do. All 3 options seem reasonable- fold because i feel she has k 10, call because im not certain and i have position, or raise to try and get some info. I raise to 20. she then re raises to 25 (yes, i know not legal, but this is a friendly home game) i call. anyway, a rag spade came on the turn and she checked and i went all in (why?) she calls and flips over k 10. at any stage could i have folded my top 2 pair realistically?

[Tommyhawkers 0]

Made correct call. Hard to get a read on someone who doesn't know what they're doing. She probably shouldn't be playing in this game. Make sure she comes back next week and really stick it in her. I mean, hard.Can't really fold, she's just as likely to have AA or KK. Just keep playing with her!

[SHOTPUTSTAR 0]

Fold pre flop. JQo is CRAP. That's all.

[DunkinDonuts 0]

Could you, should you, would you fold?I could, I should, and I would fold.I'd fold down low and fold up top,I'd fold QJ before the flop.I would not play it here or there,I would not even push with two pair.You see QJ and go woot wootBut they're not even the same suit!You should not play it so strong, you see.Because QJ sucks vociferously.

[dead money 1]

Anybody who is new to the game plays very passive. If they suddenly get interested in a hand and are asking about the hand rankings want to know how good of a hand they just made. Someone who has never played before will not bet unless they have a monster. In that case, you cant put her on a draw because she would have just check/called the whole way. Laying down the hand would have been hard, but with those kind of Caro tells, you probably could have gotten off it.

[Tommyhawkers 0]

Could you, should you, would you fold?I could, I should, and I would fold.I'd fold down low and fold up top,I'd fold QJ before the flop.I would not play it here or there,I would not even push with two pair.You see QJ and go woot wootBut they're not even the same suit!You should not play it so strong, you see.Because QJ sucks vociferously.

POST OF THE YEAR.

[kennyg1966 0]

coulda YES...shoulda PERHAPS....hindsight says ya shoulda...but ya didn't...get her back next time!!

[chipinchair 0]

TJ Cloutier talks of very similar situations in Tournament play that applies here. I think the play on the flop, and post flop is fine...The thing that got you into trouble was the pre-flop rasie with a marginal (to say the least) holding. In the works of TJ Cloutier, hands like QJ,KQ,JK are all trap hands and this situation explains why. The only hands that will call your raise will have you dominated.

[SHOTPUTSTAR 0]

Could you, should you, would you fold?I could, I should, and I would fold.I'd fold down low and fold up top,I'd fold QJ before the flop.I would not play it here or there,I would not even push with two pair.You see QJ and go woot wootBut they're not even the same suit!You should not play it so strong, you see.Because QJ sucks vociferously.

Well put my good dr! Well put! LMAO

[Herr Baader 0]

New players can be tough bc they're so difficult to read; often they are just calling stations, holding onto middle pair or somesuch, and rarely even considering the value of their kicker. But when she asked to see the card rankings, that should have sent alarm bells off that she doesn't have something like top pair or even an overpair, but more likely trips or a straight. I wouldn't have raised for info, bc new players are generally hard to get info from this way, but when she reraised (raising is rare for new players in my experience) I would have seriously considered throwing my cards away. I think when she did ask for those hand rankings I would have played passively from that point on and instead of raising just called her down, assuming she didn't put in any huge bets; then just hope that she didn't have as strong a hand as she thought she did, or that you make your boat a get to take all her money on the river.PS I find myself in the unenviable (and unprecidented) position of disagreeing with Dr. Seuss. Fold QJ here? 10 handed, sure, but 5 handed QJ is certainly playable, and you may as well raise it, representing something bigger than what it is. If you're called, most of the time you can take it down with a continuation bet on the flop.

[justblaze 0]

Could you, should you, would you fold?I could, I should, and I would fold.I'd fold down low and fold up top,I'd fold QJ before the flop.I would not play it here or there,I would not even push with two pair.You see QJ and go woot wootBut they're not even the same suit!You should not play it so strong, you see.Because QJ sucks vociferously.

POST OF THE YEAR.

[Maastonacci 0]

Could you, should you, would you fold?I could, I should, and I would fold.I'd fold down low and fold up top,I'd fold QJ before the flop.I would not play it here or there,I would not even push with two pair.You see QJ and go woot wootBut they're not even the same suit!You should not play it so strong, you see.Because QJ sucks vociferously.

i lol'd

[InertGrudge 0]

Could you, should you, would you fold?I could, I should, and I would fold.I'd fold down low and fold up top,I'd fold QJ before the flop.I would not play it here or there,I would not even push with two pair.You see QJ and go woot wootBut they're not even the same suit!You should not play it so strong, you see.Because QJ sucks vociferously.

POST OF THE YEAR.

Amen.And yes, fold QJ preflop. Even 5-handed. And when a beginner asks "what beats what," it's usually a pretty big tell that they have a pretty big hand. Besides, you put her on K-10, and still decided to re-raise and then push on the turn. Stick to your reads. Especially when she has a tell bigger than the Great Wall.

[kouta43 0]

i guess my biggest problem as not sticking to my read. I just could not throw away top two pair, even though i was probably 80% sure i was up againt K 10. I think other players here would be able to put her on a better hand, but how many would still have the skill to throw the hand away?

[DunkinDonuts 0]

Could you, should you, would you fold?I could, I should, and I would fold.I'd fold down low and fold up top,I'd fold QJ before the flop.I would not play it here or there,I would not even push with two pair.You see QJ and go woot wootBut they're not even the same suit!You should not play it so strong, you see.Because QJ sucks vociferously.

POST OF THE YEAR.

Amen.And yes, fold QJ preflop. Even 5-handed. And when a beginner asks "what beats what," it's usually a pretty big tell that they have a pretty big hand. Besides, you put her on K-10, and still decided to re-raise and then push on the turn. Stick to your reads. Especially when she has a tell bigger than the Great Wall.

That's basically what I was getting at. The trouble with new players is that we sometimes forget that they are dealt actual playing cards, and not a couple of paper napkins with silly denominations like the Eleventeen of Octagons. Occasionally, even the worst players will win at showdown, due to a horrible rule that is sometimes referred to as "cards speak." See Williamson, Tiffany.Beginner's Rule of Law:"What beats what?" = "My what is better than your what"

[Allie 0]

Could you, should you, would you fold?I could, I should, and I would fold.I'd fold down low and fold up top,I'd fold QJ before the flop.I would not play it here or there,I would not even push with two pair.You see QJ and go woot wootBut they're not even the same suit!You should not play it so strong, you see.Because QJ sucks vociferously.

This is great! I love it. I'm not keen on the preflop raise. For me, QJo is a hand to limp in with cheaply and see the flop, or get rid of. But that's just me. However, once you were in the hand, I would have called her raise after the flop. I think that's ok. When she checked the turn....I would not have gone all in....since you're still very uncertain of her holdings and of her play. I would have made either a smaller bet, or checked and taken the free card. I think a more cautious approach with her, due to her inexperience and unpredictable play was in order.

[InertGrudge 0]

i guess my biggest problem as not sticking to my read. I just could not throw away top two pair, even though i was probably 80% sure i was up againt K 10. I think other players here would be able to put her on a better hand, but how many would still have the skill to throw the hand away?

Seriously? I ususally stick to my reads. There are tougher laydowns to make. I'm not saying I make a huge laydown everytime, but I'm saying this laydown isn't really too tough. Difficult, but not overly so.

[kouta43 0]

although it doesnt sound it i thought my play was semi cautious- hesitated for about 5 minutes before deciding how to proceed on the flop. I basically decided i couldnt throw away top 2 pair and thus i thought if i couldnt fold i didnt like falt calling on such a dangerous flop, so i put in a raise. I am just kicking myself for not folding because i elt pretty strongly i was beat depsite by strong holding... thats poker, and thats hindsight.

[Ron_Mexico 4,219]

raise preflop with qj offsuit. Hmmm.I think we found our mistake.Everything else was fine.

[kouta43 0]

raise preflop with qj offsuit. Hmmm.I think we found our mistake.Everything else was fine.

effectively we were down to 4 handed because UTG folded. and even if i jsut limp in, imstill not sure i can get away from my hand post flop, but thats me, i am a limit player where it costs me a bet or two rather than my stack which may be half my problem. Only playing NL for kicks with mates.

[InertGrudge 0]

raise preflop with qj offsuit. Hmmm.I think we found our mistake.Everything else was fine.

effectively we were down to 4 handed because UTG folded. and even if i jsut limp in, imstill not sure i can get away from my hand post flop, but thats me, i am a limit player where it costs me a bet or two rather than my stack which may be half my problem. Only playing NL for kicks with mates.

I don't mean to sound like a broken record, beat a dead horse, or post continually saying the same thing, but you read her for the made straight. That is how you get away from it. She asked "what beats what," indicating that she probably had a strong hand, probably stronger than your top two.If you didn't have a read on the player, then I think the way you played this hand would have been fine. The turn move maybe a bit suspect, but I'd go along with it. However, that was not the case. You say you were 80% certain of her holding. Give the benefit of the doubt and live to bust her another hand. That's all I'm saying.

[Davin 0]

folding 2 face cards in position w/ no raise 5 handed seems extremely weak tighthell, i'd raise it just like you. try to steal the blinds. but if i did face resistance, i'd play it cautiously. of course, you flopped top two against straight. many ppl would go bust after that, consider youself cold decked i guess.

[Ron_Mexico 4,219]

folding 2 face cards in position w/ no raise 5 handed seems extremely weak tighthell, i'd raise it just like you. try to steal the blinds. but if i did face resistance, i'd play it cautiously. of course, you flopped top two against straight. many ppl would go bust after that, consider youself cold decked i guess.

debatable

[Royal_Tour 0]

Could you, should you, would you fold?I could, I should, and I would fold.I'd fold down low and fold up top,I'd fold QJ before the flop.I would not play it here or there,I would not even push with two pair.You see QJ and go woot wootBut they're not even the same suit!You should not play it so strong, you see.Because QJ sucks vociferously.

POST OF THE YEAR.

awesome!

[Royal_Tour 0]

folding 2 face cards in position w/ no raise 5 handed seems extremely weak tighthell, i'd raise it just like you. try to steal the blinds. but if i did face resistance, i'd play it cautiously. of course, you flopped top two against straight. many ppl would go bust after that, consider youself cold decked i guess.

debatable

cold decked? are you kidding,You raised her lead out bet she then re-raised, a new player only does this because they have a hand thats on the chart hand rankings card, and "draw" is not one of the hands on the hand ranking card.