sng players, swings

[proletartiat 0]

I have found success largely for playing sit and gos. Took $50.25 up to $228 (this morning), but have had terrible luck since this morning. My BR is now $185.Overall I'm not disappointed with my play. Finished fourth (one spot out of the money) like 6 or 7 times. Didn't get many high pocket pairs (like less than 5 in over 1000 hands). And wasn't lucky when it came to breaks (loosing with AK to A8).Is this a normal swing? Do you hit bad days. Any advice?

[proletartiat 0]

Also, the site I'm on right now doesn't have MTT. What would be a good site to go to for these?

[SketchEtch 0]

I've won $500 in one night playing $5 and $10 SNG's, and I've seen it disappear just as fast. I think a mistake is winning a lot of $5 SNG's and then going to $10's and then $20's, $50's etc. Your hard earned SNG bankroll will vanish pretty quickly. I've found solid, continued success at $5 and $10 right now, so that's what I play. I can consistently be in the money in these events.

[Randy Reed 0]

I'm a regular sng player and yep, the swings will come. By nature, since there is a time limit and rising blinds, coupled with bad beats you just can't win them all. What helped me was logging all sessions and find the ones that you are most consistent at to play the most. I put $50 on pokerstars about 3 months ago and have cashed out about $2000 and have about $450 right now. I have been working on my limit game alot lately so some winnings are from that. I do try to hit some $20 ones and found that as long as I play my game and don't run up against a maniac I can do just as well in them, even won 2nd in an 18 person $30 the other night. If you lose a couple bigger ones, just move down and get it back. When i'm in a rut I'll burn up a 1-table $10 for a while to get it back. Just don't go on tilt and play solid and it will come.

[Guest]

As long as poker involves cards, there are going to be down swings like this. And vice versa. The only difference is, when you win 3 or 4 in a row instead of bubbling, it's easy to convince yourself that it's because you're a great player, and doesn't have anything to do with luck. You didn't say what buy-in SNGs you are playing, so it's hard to know how much of a swing this is for you. But either way, I'd say just take a few days off. If you've lost 2, 3, or even 10 in a row, you'll be pressing, trying to make up for your losses. Just step back for a couple days and stay on your game. As for MTTs, it depends on what you're looking for. UB and Party have huge tourneys where if you can outlast a few thousand people once in a while, you're looking at a big payday. Smaller sites are going to have fewer players in their MTTs, which gives you a better chance of cashing consistently, but more money if you do. Just remember the cardinal rule of MTT play: don't sign up if you're not ready to play your best game for 5 hours. Good Luck. ZH

[KKsuited 0]

The bottom line is there's just to much variance and luck in 1 table sng's. The true skill in tournament poker is MTT.The money for good players in poker is in either cash games or MTT. Yeah, you can make some money at the $5 sng's mainly b/c there are a lot of really bad players in those games. As you move up and the skill level becomes for equal, it is very difficult to consistantly win.Have you every wondered why the big online pro's aren't playing $1,000 sng's all day on pokerstars?You can only out play someone and get cards for so long in a 1hr sng. My advice, don't try to make it playing sng's.

[proletartiat 0]

Thanks guys!So this is what happend. First, I should mention that I built that bankroll 90% on $3 Buy-ins (with $0.50 rake/fee). My high point was $228, and I played one more last night after I posted, so I was down to $182 (ish).Then I tried two $1 buy-ins (10 player) and didn't finish in the money because the loose play in the lower limits can beat the shit out of you. So then I'm at about $180 and I bought into a $10, which I won. Up to $221. Then I bought into another $10, which I finished 5th. I busted out with AK to AA with the board showing A 7 10, so I wasn't too dissappointed. Then I bought into a $3 and won $15, so I'm at $222.I really notice a difference if I don't get high pocket pairs. -p

[proletartiat 0]

My advice, don't try to make it playing sng's.

I really appreciate the advice KK. So given what you said above what should I do given the following:· I don't do as well with cash game. I have to play two limit tables just to stay awake and can slowly turn a profit. (I think) At low stakes no limit ($5 to the table, .10/.20 blinds) I either double/triple up, or lose it all. Sometimes both.· I feel comfortable in tourney's because my buy-in (and bankroll) is totally unrelated to my chip stack. And mentally this allows me to be a tight agressive player.Also, I wonder if anyone could elaborate on the MTTs. How big are they at PS and UB, where has smaller ones?

[Mister Hand 0]

I posted a thread on athis subject last night, but it's already on page two:http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...opic.php?t=3444

The bottom line is there's just to much variance and luck in 1 table sng's.  The true skill in tournament poker is MTT.The money for good players in poker is in either cash games or MTT.  Yeah, you can make some money at the $5 sng's mainly b/c there are a lot of really bad players in those games.  As you move up and the skill level becomes for equal, it is very difficult to consistantly win.

I disagree with almost all of this. Skill differences play a big part at all SNG levels. That gap may decrease a bit as the levels go higher, but it's always there. If everyone at the $200 SNG level was equally skilled, I wouldn't be able to be a consistent winner on them. The real problem with the $5 SNGs is that on many sites, the rake is $1, which comes to 20% of your entry fee. Compare that to the 7.5% at the $200 tables on PP.SNGs do require a different strategy to play, as it combines elements of both cash games and MTTs. Even good players may struggle against lesser players if they're unfamiliar with those strategic concepts. And I find it hard to believe that there's less "variance" in MTTs where 10% will finish in the money and hundreds of players are entered than there is in a 10 player SNG where 30% finish in the money.

[KKsuited 0]

Mister Hand - I just don't know of any or have heard of any professional players making a living at 1 table tournaments. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. If you can consistantly win at those, more power to you.As far as the Variance I mentioned, I just ment over the long haul, good players rise to the top more often in MTT's. If a good player played 500 touraments of 200 people, there skills should be able to outlast the other 199 people more often than not. That would not be the case in a sng environment. You have to little chips and too little time to outplay the other people.I think my point is proven by the fact that there is not one big name professional player how consistantly plays 1 table tournaments. They either play big cash games, big HU matches, or MTT. That's just a fact.To the original poster, sng's are a great way to learn how to play the game. If you can make a liitle money in those, then use that money to play $5 MTT, that would be great. I'd stick to UB for the 5-10 MTT. Pokerstars gets to many players and you could go a long time without making any money.That's how I built a bank roll. Early on in my poker career (ha, ha) I made a final table of a 500 person $10 stars MTT and made about $450. Soon after that I won a $5 500 person MTT on UB. I then had the BR to play all the $5 and $10 MTT I wanted. I started playing sats to some bigger events after than. That was about 2 years ago, but I still a lot of $10 and $20 events online. I try to play a few $50 events but rarely much higher than that.

[Guest XXEddie]

Is this a normal swing?  Do you hit bad days. Any advice?

you basically said it yourself, we all have bad days. You just have to play though them untill you lose a certain (usually pre-set) amount. keep at it and your luck will change in on time

[SketchEtch 0]

If a good player played 500 touraments of 200 people, there skills should be able to outlast the other 199 people more often than not.

I disagree. You're saying the "good player" (by which I take it you mean best player) would win 251 or more of those tournaments. It's a statistical improbability.If this were the case, the best player in the world would win the WSOP on average every other year.

[Guest]

Not saying I agree with either side, but he did say 200 person tournaments. The WSOP had 2600 or so this year. Back in the day, when there weren't as many entrants, it was possible for Chan or T.J. to go back to back. Most people agree nothing like that will ever happen again. Harrington's 2 final tables in a row are probably the closest we'll see.

[Mister Hand 0]

As far as the Variance I mentioned' date=' I just ment over the long haul, good players rise to the top more often in MTT's. If a good player played 500 touraments of 200 people, there skills should be able to outlast the other 199 people more often than not. That would not be the case in a sng environment. You have to little chips and too little time to outplay the other people.[/quote']By variance, I'm talking about statistical fluctuations. A top MTT player is going to experience a lot of fluctuations, especially in tourneys with hundreds of players. Most of the time, he's not going to finish in the money. When he does, he'll usually make a nice score. It's akin to me giving you 250 to one that you can't pick a number I'm thinking of between one and a hundred. If we do this bet once a day, you'll almost certainly be up after a year - but you could easily go a month without a winning session.By contrast, an SNG pro (and yes, we do exist), while probably have a lower overall EV than a top MTT pro, is not going to be subject to the same kinds of bankroll fluctuations an MTT player is. That means we need a smaller bankroll to start with, which is an important consideration.

I think my point is proven by the fact that there is not one big name professional player how consistantly plays 1 table tournaments. They either play big cash games, big HU matches, or MTT. That's just a fact.

I do agree that a pro NL cash player or MTT player might be a bit constrained by the SNG format. And at the current levels, even $1000 a seat SNG isn't going to attract a top pro, because even if he has a 40% EV, he's only going to average a profit a $400 per SNG. Whereas if they're sitting at the "Big Game", they'll make ten times that even if their win rate is half a BB per hour. But you also won't see any of the top pros gracing the final table of the WPT events in 20-40 games, either. That doesn't mean there aren't professionals grinding out a living in those games. And since our original poster isn't one of those top pros, I don't think the SNGs should be dismissed out of hand.

To the original poster, sng's are a great way to learn how to play the game.

They're also a great way to learn how to play at the final table of an MTT. If you have a lot of SNG experience, you'll have an edge over the other players.

[Dick Danger 0]

By contrast, an SNG pro (and yes, we do exist), while probably have a lower overall EV than a top MTT pro, is not going to be subject to the same kinds of bankroll fluctuations an MTT player is. That means we need a smaller bankroll to start with, which is an important consideration.

How often are you ITM?

[JaysonWeber 0]

You should be in the money 65% of the time... Minimum. But you can win being around 55% It really depends on your strategy.I've just changed mine in the last 2 days once it gets down to 4 people if the blinds are bad I use a "go for broke" strategy to get myself a chance to take first, I figure I can win at this 50-60% of the time, and its a swing of 20 dollars 4th to first and only a difference of 5 dollars from 4th to 3rd... So I figure I'm doing the right thing, and its been succesful.

[Fabiano 0]

i too play sngs often, i mix it up constantly however, so that i don't get in a bad habbit, for instance, will play a sng and after that buy in at a 1/2nlhe. it works to clear your mind of the rush of winning a sng.Another thing i found specially on pokerstars is that the low buy in of 5 and 6 dollar sngs are very very loose with players calling you down just to see what you got, so it has been about a month since i started playing the 25 turbo sngs and have multiplied my earnings. i suggest you build a larger bankroll, say to 300 and start joining these higher buy ins.its important that your bankroll is at at least 300 so that you can play without the fear of losing. and since these sng's cost more, player are tighter (usually), leaving you the opportunity to steal many pots.good luck, hope this helps

[machete 0]

The bottom line is there's just to much variance and luck in 1 table sng's. The true skill in tournament poker is MTT.

You mean with blinds going up every 10-15 minutes.... not much room for a skilled player to manouveur. I think to survive most on line MTT's even a skilled player will need to get lucky.

[JaysonWeber 0]

i too play sngs often, i mix it up constantly however, so that i don't get in a bad habbit, for instance, will play a sng and after that buy in at a 1/2nlhe. it works to clear your mind of the rush of winning a sng.Another thing i found specially on pokerstars is that the low buy in of 5 and 6 dollar sngs are very very loose with players calling you down just to see what you got, so it has been about a month since i started playing the 25 turbo sngs and have multiplied my earnings. i suggest you build a larger bankroll, say to 300 and start joining these higher buy ins.its important that your bankroll is at at least 300 so that you can play without the fear of losing. and since these sng's cost more, player are tighter (usually), leaving you the opportunity to steal many pots.good luck, hope this helps

This is extremely good advice for the most part... I also will clear my head, take breaks, play some omaha even, just to get out of the funk, take a walk.... whatever you need to do. You need to have a clear mind to win, lately I've been just semi playing and my results have gone down, so i'm gearing up again for a pretty big run soon, and like he said, build a bankroll to the point where money doesn't even matter.

[jakoye 0]

i too play sngs often, i mix it up constantly however, so that i don't get in a bad habbit, for instance, will play a sng and after that buy in at a 1/2nlhe. it works to clear your mind of the rush of winning a sng.

I've been operating the exact same way as of late and it seems to be working like a charm. I'll play a couple sit n' go's until I win one (and if I win the first one, I'm done) and then I'll go play some limit in order to prevent myself from getting too c-o-c-k-y/loose. I can't argue with the results.Of course my latest run of success HAS coincided with my discovey and reading of Smash's posts, so maybe that's part of it too!

[Mister Hand 0]

You should be in the money 65% of the time... Minimum.

Sorry, but I think you're way off with that percentage. Let's say I play 100 SNGS at the $200 + 15 level. That's $21,500 in entries.And for argument's sake, let's say that I finish in the money 65 times. And let's divide those ITM finishes equally among first, second, and third place:21 1st place finishes = $21,00022 2nd place finishes = $13,20022 3rd place finishes = $8,800Total: $43,000, $43K - 21,500 in entry fees = $21,500 in profit. Since you paid that much in entry fees, that's an ROI of 100%. That's simply not going to happen. 30% ROI is about as much as the best SNG players can expect. To answer DD's question, I finish ITM less than half of the time.

[Buffalo Hold 'Em 0]

Hi everyone,First post, long time lurker.I play SNG's almost exclusively now, save a satellite for a big tourney.I was playing 6-handed SNG on UB, with moderate success. 6-handed I think is a much better investment, when 33% of the seats hit the cash, vs. 30% of a full table. 2nd place is still 30% of the prize pool.I started playing on a Prima skin and found 5-handed SNG's that pay the top 3 spots. 3rd only pays back the buy-in, but these things pretty much eliminate the variance of a full SNG. Usually only last about 15 minutes. They are cash machines :wink: . If you want to build a bankroll, I suggest giving them a try.Good luck, great forum everyone!

[Dick Danger 0]

First off, there is no way in hell that you'll ever see me at a $200+15 SNG. But I used to think that I was a pretty good SNG player. That is until I started to keep records. Looking back at my last 1000 10+1 SNGs I was ITM 43% of the time. I was 1st in 198, 2nd in 29, and 3rd in 203, ugh. So my 11k turned into $14830, not too good if you ask me. Even if I really really really tried to get better at SNGs I don't think that I'd ever get to 65%. I've pretty much given up on SNGs. Now I spend most of my time in Omaha 8/B ring games and I'm doing much better. I'm not saying that making money is impossible in SNGs just because I couldn't do it, but I think there are easier means to the same end.