early double (triple...quadruple) up

[timwakefield 68]

Very early in an 800 person $20 NL tourney. Blinds 15-30. One limper, I limp in mid position with J10 clubs, one call, button raises to 100, 3 calls. Pot about 450.Flop comes 10 3 4 with two clubs. First position immediately goes all in for about 1200 chips. Calling would leave me with about 200. Do you call, even though you have to expect your opponent has at least a better kicker than you? Also, I wont say what I did yet, but both players acting after me called for all of their chips. If I could have seen everybody's cards it would have been an automatic call (right?) since I had the only club draw and could quadruple up. But not knowing this...do you call the immediate all in?

[zimmer4141 0]

Big tourney with a good structure and a big buyin, I fold. Small buyin, bad structure, gotta gamble sooner or later, I'd probably say screw it and call knowing I've probably got 12 outs, and possibly even the best hand if he's one of those donks that would push with 99 or 88.

[Davin 0]

you're right, you'll need to improve to win this hand. early position's allin shoudn't be taken lightly, most of the time that i've observed this, it's usually been a set or two pair (although occasionally it's also a big draw)basically, you're calling w/ your flush draw, bc your two pair and trip ten outs arent clean. for your hand, you need the pot ot be about twice the size of the bet to be profitable, but you're only getting 1-1.375 on your money. you flopped a sexy hand, but if you think that you need to improve to win, you should lay this hand down.if you're opponent were to just bet the pot, however, it wouldnt be a bad play to push all in since you have some fold equity. but a call here is just gambling, plain and simple.as for part two, if you have the only flush draw, then hell yes you should call w/ 4 players in. however, if you were last to act the all three went in before you, you may have to fold since you're flush draw may not be live. generally speaking, when you go all in in a tournament, you want to either have the best hand or the best draw, you have neither. if i were the button on this hand and have seen 3 other people go all in before me, i might have to lay this hand down (but that's heavily dependent on the reads you have on your opponenets)

[timwakefield 68]

Oh yeah, if all three guys went all in in front of me i definitely fold, figuring somebody quite likely has the nut flush draw. But if the first guy has for example qq with no club, it's about 50/50 if it's just us two.The other part of the question I didn't specify was if I could see his cards (he actually held A10 with no club), is it worth calling here with the chance to double up early? I think I'm about 45% to win (12 outs) and could be the early chip leader at the table, albeit not a huge one.

[Davin 0]

Oh yeah, if all three guys went all in in front of me i definitely fold, figuring somebody quite likely has the nut flush draw. But if the first guy has for example qq with no club, it's about 50/50 if it's just us two.The other part of the question I didn't specify was if I could see his cards (he actually held A10 with no club), is it worth calling here with the chance to double up early? I think I'm about 45% to win (12 outs) and could be the early chip leader at the table, albeit not a huge one.

well i definately dont put him on qq, he limp and cold called the pf raise. you were lucking to run into a way overplayed a10.busting out or getting big stacked early is a good strategy for tournament pros (like dn), but that's only because they're in to win the big money, can afford the large buy-ins, and can win more money in the ring games once they bust out. you're strategy shouldn't be to thrive or die in the first few rounds of a mtt, but rather steadily build a stack and avoid marginal situations. the situation you're describing is extremely marginal, because if you lose, you're pretty much done for the tournament (unless you get really lucky and catch a great run of cards). basically, how i see it isn't you're calling 1200 to win 1650, but rather putting in 1400 to win 1650. with those odds, i definately wouldn't call even if i saw his hand.

[shpaget 0]

There's nothing wrong with folding here and waiting for something better, but I push all my chips in the middle too.I'm putting this guy on AT and playing for my 12 outs....1200 chips to win 1650...yup...even if it means your tournament life you have to take pot odds.You might even get lucky and he's got 99 or Ac9c and you don't have to hit anything (but now need to dodge cards).

[timwakefield 68]

There's nothing wrong with folding here and waiting for something better, but I push all my chips in the middle too.I'm putting this guy on AT and playing for my 12 outs....1200 chips to win 1650...yup...even if it means your tournament life you have to take pot odds.You might even get lucky and he's got 99 or Ac9c and you don't have to hit anything (but now need to dodge cards).

Anyways, he had A10, I called, next caller had something like K10, 3rd caller had KK and it held up.

[copernicus 0]

i fold to the preflop raise

[timwakefield 68]

i fold to the preflop raise

You really fold here? J10 clubs with about 4 to 1 odds on your 80 chip call?

[PrtyPSux 0]

i fold to the preflop raise

I wouldnt fold early in the tourney getting those odds to flop a monster he has a really good draw and Id probably call here and try to build an big stack.

[copernicus 0]

i fold to the preflop raise

You really fold here? J10 clubs with about 4 to 1 odds on your 80 chip call?

My bad..I misread as a raise "of 100" not "to 100". Even at "to 100" the calling odds are technically there, and if I had added to the starting stack stack already I would call. Until I have some flexibility in chips I don't play drawing hands after a called raise and players behind me though. Too often there is an all-in in response to the raise and Ive thrown chips away pre-flop.Even with no reraise, if you flop a flush draw any decent table is going to price you out of it (and even if they barely give you calling odds you dont have the stack to play the draw and miss). The pot is too rich already for at least one of those callers not to have a hand they want to protect.Even the miracle flopped flush is vulnerable at least to a 4th flush card hitting...the AK or Q of clubs is likely to be out there with raisers and callers. If one of those cards is also in the hands of an overpair youre at risk of losing all your chips, since an overpair/flush draw/backdoor straight draw is something like 40% to beat your made flush.Since its going to highly unlikely that I can play the flop, even with a great flop like this one, I dont play pre-flop without some "extra chips" in my stack.