decision time on the bubble

[dna4ever 2]

Was playing one of those $20 Stars SnGs last night with 180 people, where first pays $1080, 2nd $720, on down to 9-18th $43.20.Was sitting in 9th chip position with 20 people left (2 from the bubble).Blinds are 600/1200 ante 75 and I had $12,042T Seat 2: 2DANDAMAN (7219 in chips) Seat 3: Reb3186 (6480 in chips) Seat 4: Cassnasty (15669 in chips) (button)Seat 5: jhsensation (7925 in chips) (SB)Seat 7: dna4ever (12042 in chips) (BB)Seat 8: dam_straight (15481 in chips) Seat 9: sportfreak (25336 in chips) Blinds are posted and it folds around to the button who is a solid player that bumps it 2x (2400T), SB folds, and its to I was in the BB where I woke up to two red Kings K K . The Button (raiser) had me covered in chips and there are two people at the other table that will pretty much bust out when their blinds come the next round.Personally I wasnt there to play for 10th - 18th playing 3 hours for $23 profit, but it was a tough decision. Call and see a flop? Raise it back 3x - 5x and comit half my chips, or push and put the decision on the OR. I decided to push and the the button called my push immediately. I'll give his hand and results a bit later, but curious what you all do here.

[macphec 0]

Any reads on button? Has he just min raised before?I sometimes like to trap here and just call but reraising is fine as well. The reraise may look like a resteal attempt so you may get button to committ chips with a dominated hand.Much much too weak to fold and wait for the short stacks to bust. You are playing for 1st (or should be) and this is the situation you want to accumulate chips.Personally, I would flat call and if no Ace comes on the flop play it aggressively.

[dna4ever 2]

the button was a solid player and had done min raising before which I folded to. The one other time i came over the top to his min raise he folded.as i was telling a guy on my blog, smooth calling, waiting to see if an Ace fell was the other thing that ran through my head as the other option.the fact it was a min raise (possible button steal) i felt like he could have had anything there and for him to call nearly all his chips he would have to have a monster and the only hand im in real danger to is AA.If he folds I pick up $4725T and am in 4th chip position with $17000-$18000T. If he calls I'm probably in good shape. The bubble thing is what made it so hard, but I definitely wasnt playing for 10th - 18th so I am still thinking I made the right play, but again your suggestion did go through my head.

[copernicus 0]

This is one of the rare cases where I would slow play Ks.Buttons raise could be anything at all, including a cheap attempt at a steal. There is the risk (what is it, about 22%?) of an A flopping that will slow you down or possibly make your Ks a loser, but I think its worth the risk against the big stack, given your goal of the final table.I would smooth call here. I would check to an uncoordinated board with no A and hope to induce a bet out of the button. Against any A I would lead with a 1/2 pot continuation bet and fold to a reraise. Against a coordinated board without an A I would lead with a 3/4 pot bet.If he checks the flop also then I would lead the turn with a 1/2 pot bet against any board even an A. He probably would have bet a pocket A after you showed weakness, but may have caught a small piece of the flop that he didnt want to bet, but is willing to call.

[dna4ever 2]

Heres the full hand ...http://pokerhand.org/index.php?page=view&hand=157720I pushed my KK, he called with AQ, spiked his 3 outter ace on the flop and I never improved, busted on the bubble.

[copernicus 0]

Heres the full hand ...http://pokerhand.org/index.php?page=view&hand=157720I pushed my KK, he called with AQ, spiked his 3 outter ace on the flop and I never improved, busted on the bubble.

Unlucky. Awful call to your all in with AQ imo, unless he thinks your a donk who would go all in against another large stack with a weak A.It wasnt an explicit part of my reasoning but with another big stack out there you dont necessarily want to go toe to toe, and my line protects against that.

[dna4ever 2]

yea i thought it was a terrible call too. i had a pretty solid table image and hands i showed down were solid.this guy went on to win 1st at MY $1080at least he put my chips to good use

[shpaget 0]

Heres the full hand ...http://pokerhand.org/index.php?page=view&hand=157720I pushed my KK, he called with AQ, spiked his 3 outter ace on the flop and I never improved, busted on the bubble.

Yup - I push too, and that is an absolutely terrible call....for another 2000, sure...but for 2/3 of his chips where he is definitely behind, and at best a coin flip, just an awful, awful, atrocious call.Or, he put you on AJ, making it a good call based on an awful read.Anyway - here's why I push...the vast majority of players fold here and you win....no shame in taking this pot right now...as well, if the schmuck does call you win 3/4 times.If you call, and an Ace hits the flop, you are most likely folding, and could actually lose the pot to someone with KQ if they decide to represent the Ace....otherwise, if you're willing to call down an ace who bets small to the river, you will lose all your chips.If no ace comes you are probably taking the pot with any bet, so you're not getting any implied odds by calling KK...unless you get really lucky and a queen comes on the flop.And there's your coin flip...you have just as much a chance of hitting an Ace as you do a Queen....they cancel each other out, so take the fold equity combined with the fact that if someone does call you win almost 75% of the time.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

I'm pushing pre-flop most of the time. I think you played it fine.

[copernicus 0]

I'm pushing pre-flop most of the time.  I think you played it fine.

If it werent for the OPs explicit goal of making it to the bigger money I would consider pushing too, but given that goal the way to maximize the chances is to take advantage of the KK when you have it. Taking the pot down pre-flop just seems like giving away too much.

[shpaget 0]

I'm pushing pre-flop most of the time.  I think you played it fine.

If it werent for the OPs explicit goal of making it to the bigger money I would consider pushing too, but given that goal the way to maximize the chances is to take advantage of the KK when you have it. Taking the pot down pre-flop just seems like giving away too much.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with fold equity....you might get another 2000 chips by calling, and then checking to him and letting him bet, but not much more. When you are covered by your opponent is not the time to get cute and FPS and slow play kings.Especially out of position.

[strategy 4]

I'm pushing pre-flop most of the time.  I think you played it fine.

If it werent for the OPs explicit goal of making it to the bigger money I would consider pushing too, but given that goal the way to maximize the chances is to take advantage of the KK when you have it. Taking the pot down pre-flop just seems like giving away too much.

I skimmed this thread very lightly so somebody could have said something similar to this, but...We have 10BBs in our stack. We have KK. We have a guy who looks like he wants to play with us. There is no way in the world that I'm going to try to slowplay this and risk having to make the painful decision on the flop if an ace hits. Go after the money that's already in the pot and if you get called by a worse hand (which will happen more often than you may think), it's gravy. I don't see the button laying down AA-77, AK-AT here, and that's a very conservative calling range. I have played with many who would call the re-raise with KQs.Just my two cents.

[timwakefield 68]

This is one of the rare cases where I would slow play Ks.Buttons raise could be anything at all, including a cheap attempt at a steal. There is the risk (what is it, about 22%?) of an A flopping that will slow you down or possibly make your Ks a loser, but I think its worth the risk against the big stack, given your goal of the final table.

Bad time to slowplay...if an ace hits you're likely to lose the hand to the raiser regardless of what he has, and could be forced to fold if say 567 spades falls.ESPECIALLY trying to survive the bubble, it's smart to move all in with KK here. If he has AA then good for him, he can have all your chips...if he doesn't then you are in a great spot whether he calls or not.

[PrtyPSux 0]

my immediate response was "no way im slowplaying here" ..but wait, Im remembering the time I played this tourney, the final 20 was a fcking crapshoot a lot like the bubble in a regular sit n go. So, If you ARE going for the win ( and i hope you were, not just the final table) you need to accumulate chips in a hurry,, blinds in this thing catch up quick. So Im kind of on the fence here, i dont know exactly what would be the correct play. Obviously pushing here, is the optimal play because most of the time you'll go in with the best hand, BUT, this might not be the play that gets you the most chips. as far as I see it, these are you're options.1. raise to 5000 and hope no ace falls on the flop. where you'll push..this, would be the standard play I guess because you get an extra 3k off of him (plus you'll double up when his kicker hits, or when he has a pair like 99 and the flop is 448 or so.) .. but with blinds this big and stacks this low there is a glitch to it, the flop coms A105 and now what? do you make a continuation bet? do u check fold possibly the best hand? check call? its tough, and its not the kind of situation you want to be in. so, option 1. is out of the question.. for me at least.2.- push. very reasonable, you'll double up most of the time, and you avoid tough decisions on the flop. but, the problem here is that you are losing value A LOT of the time against a guy who has minraised/folded against you in the past. so I dont like this one too much. 3.- Finally there is the option of Smooth calling preflop, this is the one I liked the best (I just figured it out as I was writing it) .. by smooth calling PF, you keep the pot small and take a flop, when the flop comes, you have a variety of options that wont cost you too many chips. If the flop comes A107 you can stop n go by betting out 2,500 this is to scare the 88 and 99 hands away, if he plays back, you laydown your kings and still have a 9k ish stack to work with. Now, when the flop doesnt have an A, you can check and he will likely try to take the pot with a 3k bet, so you can c/r all in here and make the same amount you wouldve made by raising preflop. So, IMO this is the best play.Btw, I didnt read all of the other posts, I never do before I reply, so I might be repeating something someone else said (i'll go back and read it), but basically replying like this really helps me theraputically (sp?), which is why Im going to try hard to post more in Tourney Strat. I probably wouldve mad a mistake if I got put in placed in this situation with only 1 minute to think about it. but now I have learned different options as to what to do in this situation, so it helped me. hoped it helps someone else as well.

[PrtyPSux 0]

Heres the full hand ...http://pokerhand.org/index.php?page=view&hand=157720I pushed my KK, he called with AQ, spiked his 3 outter ace on the flop and I never improved, busted on the bubble.

Unlucky. Awful call to your all in with AQ imo, unless he thinks your a donk who would go all in against another large stack with a weak A.It wasnt an explicit part of my reasoning but with another big stack out there you dont necessarily want to go toe to toe, and my line protects against that.

I just read back and read this, and agree with Cop. except for leading out in a coordinated board ( i think Ill stay on the greedy side and C/r) but I dont think that the villians call with AQ was THAT awful. unless of course the villian wasnt trying to win the tourney, I think he couldve taken a race with most any hand that has showdown value. I would tend to fold 7's and under. I think the call would have to depend on my read but I wouldnt immidiately fold AQ here. its a good chance at a double up, a go big or go home type thing.

[HoosierAlum 0]

Heres the full hand ...http://pokerhand.org/index.php?page=view&hand=157720I pushed my KK, he called with AQ, spiked his 3 outter ace on the flop and I never improved, busted on the bubble.

Unlucky. Awful call to your all in with AQ imo, unless he thinks your a donk who would go all in against another large stack with a weak A.It wasnt an explicit part of my reasoning but with another big stack out there you dont necessarily want to go toe to toe, and my line protects against that.

I just read back and read this, and agree with Cop. except for leading out in a coordinated board ( i think Ill stay on the greedy side and C/r) but I dont think that the villians call with AQ was THAT awful. unless of course the villian wasnt trying to win the tourney, I think he couldve taken a race with most any hand that has showdown value. I would tend to fold 7's and under. I think the call would have to depend on my read but I wouldnt immidiately fold AQ here. its a good chance at a double up, a go big or go home type thing.

I agree with Party. The call with AQ isn't that bad. Im still jamming all-in preflop though.