playing a set vs. straight/flush draws

[benhoug 0]

I'm just wondering how other people play sets vs. straight and flush draws. For instance: If you have 10 10 and the flop comes down A 10 blank. You've got the upper hand (assuming nobody has AA) but it seems like every time I try to bet out in this situation and make people pay to draw on me I'll get 2 or 3 callers and one of them ends up hitting his draw. It seems like the only way to win in this situation is for the board to pair, otherwise it's almost like thowing money away. Any thoughts???

[jayistheman 0]

well, i play NL.....i never ever slowplay anything but the stone nuts (top boat or quads) online... that includes a set. i will often go for a check raise, trying to get the money in while im ahead because they cant call on the river with a busted draw.... if they bite on the CR on the flop, i put the hammer down... i check raise them about the size of the pot then lead out for another pot sized bet on the turn if the draw misses... if 2 or more players call the flop CR, then i often move in on the turn.side note... often times, when the board has an A and another card of the same suit(as in ur A 10 x example), a flush draw is less likely.... because Ax suited is no longer a possibility.... especially in a raised pot.

[Jmo 0]

I've recently started to learn to isolate players when I have good hands. I don't want to play against more than 2 people post flop so if I want to see a flop, I raise enough to hopefully get 1 or 2 callers. Usually you can get the K 4 out pre flop.JMHO from Jmo

[Potato 0]

Are you playing limit or no-limit?If you playing no-limit, make a pot size bet on the flop. Slow down if the flush comes.If you are playing limit you have to bet/raise as much as you can on the flop. Depending on the pot size and how many players call, it is often correct for your opponents to chase the flush down.

[Matt Miner 0]

there's not much you can do other than bet (or even better - check-raise) to protect your hand. good players will try to hit their flush if they're getting the odds, and bad players will chase regardless of the math. still, you're the favorite to win the hand. you're in good shape. get your money in when you're the favorite. that's all you can hope for in poker.

[Matt Miner 0]

if you're going to attempt a check-raise you need to be very certain that someone is going to bet the pot for you. the last thing you want to do in this spot is give a free card.

[benhoug 0]

For the most part I play No Limit. In this situation I'm shocked at how often people will risk large sums of money or even their tournament life on a draw that they're going to hit 35% of the time.The hand that I based this post from was early in a NL tourney, so even though brought it in for a standard raise (3X BB = $60) it wasn't enough to scare people off. On the flop I moved in, thinking that was the only way I could protect my hand, but still I was called in two spots.On kind of a side-note, when you bring it in for a raise do you stay consistent, or change as the blinds go up? I almost always raise 3X BB regardless if the BB is 20, or if the BB is 1200. Also I bring it in for the same raise w/ AA as I do w/ 7 8 (when in position). I find this kind of hurts me if I get big hands early in a tournament b/c 60 is not enough to scare people away, but the flip-side, is I don't want to tip the strength of my hand by the size of my raise - e.g. raising 2X BB w/ a hand like AA, or 6X BB w/ QQ. What are other people's thoughts???

[jayistheman 0]

i don't mind variance in raise sizes, but make sure you add a little randomness in there so u cant be read... harrington on hold em is a good source for pre flop strategy in tournaments... he uses his watch to decide what to do ex you want to raise 4x 50% of the time and raise 2x the other 50%... if the second hand on your watch is in the first 30 seconds, then raise it 4x, othrewise raise it 2x... .even in a b&m, people can watch you and still not know what you have.

[TheIceman05 0]

For the most part I play No Limit. In this situation I'm shocked at how often people will risk large sums of money or even their tournament life on a draw that they're going to hit 35% of the time.The hand that I based this post from was early in a NL tourney, so even though brought it in for a standard raise (3X BB = $60) it wasn't enough to scare people off. On the flop I moved in, thinking that was the only way I could protect my hand, but still I was called in two spots.On kind of a side-note, when you bring it in for a raise do you stay consistent, or change as the blinds go up? I almost always raise 3X BB regardless if the BB is 20, or if the BB is 1200. Also I bring it in for the same raise w/ AA as I do w/ 7 8 (when in position). I find this kind of hurts me if I get big hands early in a tournament b/c 60 is not enough to scare people away, but the flip-side, is I don't want to tip the strength of my hand by the size of my raise - e.g. raising 2X BB w/ a hand like AA, or 6X BB w/ QQ. What are other people's thoughts???

If I'm in a tournament, I'll bet smaller on the flop (% of chips wise) and move in ON THE TURN. Think about it... if the flush comes, you can drop it, probably, no problem. His flush draw is going to look alot weaker if he's only got one card to catch his hand.If it is a cash game and you know you're going to get called by, say, 2 different draws, and furthermore you're somehow only a 50/50 shot to win, I'd be getting as much money in the pot everytime. Your hand is going to hold up more than you think. Keep in mind, if someone's got two overs along with the flush draw, and puts you on top pair or something, he's correct to call (based on his read). Anyway, I can hardly type a rational thought, here, but consider waiting until the turn to move. I guarantee your opponents will fold their hands a much higher percentage of the timeWhaddaya think?Ice

[Matt Miner 0]

if i were able to get some bozo to comit all his chips on the flop with just a flush draw i'd be pretty happy regardless of the outcome. in no-limit basically what you would want to do is price them out of the pot. in otherwords don't lay them 2-1 (or better) to try to outdraw you. bet more than the size of the pot on the flop. you should rarely slowplay a set, almost never with a two-flush on board. be careful if the draw hits - take away their implied odds.

[Matt Miner 0]

If I'm in a tournament, I'll bet smaller on the flop (% of chips wise) and move in ON THE TURN. Think about it... if the flush comes, you can drop it, probably, no problem. His flush draw is going to look alot weaker if he's only got one card to catch his hand.yeah, i like that too. you're going to have a much better idea whether their draw is going to hit on the turn, and so will they. make a solid bet on the flop, and then move in on the turn if a blank comes off.

[TheIceman05 0]

If I'm in a tournament, I'll bet smaller on the flop (% of chips wise) and move in ON THE TURN. Think about it... if the flush comes, you can drop it, probably, no problem. His flush draw is going to look alot weaker if he's only got one card to catch his hand.yeah, i like that too. you're going to have a much better idea whether their draw is going to hit on the turn, and so will they. make a solid bet on the flop, and then move in on the turn if a blank comes off.

A pot sized bet will be laying your opponent exactly 2-1 to call. Though his odds of hitting the flush on the next card are closer to 20% (4-1). If he would be all in for about the size of your pot-sized raise before the turn, he'd be getting the correct price to call.Ice

[rkkkkjj 0]

my weekly tournament i play in is with my degenerate gambling friends, even is you were to go all in with the trips, somebody with the two hearts is calling you, it gets ugly, sometimes i wont even bet it and really hope the flush card pairs the board, that always makes me smile

[Matt Miner 0]

A pot sized bet will be laying your opponent exactly 2-1 to call.derrr.:lol:my original post said MORE than the size of the pot but then i went back and edited it for some reason. my bad.

[TheIceman05 0]

my weekly tournament i play in is with my degenerate gambling friends, even is you were to go all in with the trips, somebody with the two hearts is calling you, it gets ugly, sometimes i wont even bet it and really hope the flush card pairs the board, that always makes me smile

It doesn't make you smile that they're playing like donkeys??Jesus, can I play in this game???Ice

[Matt Miner 0]

anyway i agree with you that the proper way to play the hand in no-limit is to make a strong bet on the flop and then move in on the turn if a blank comes.

[Matt Miner 0]

the flush card pairs the board, that always makes me smileyeah, gotta love it when that happens. that's a great way for newbies to lose all their money.

[CaptDrew 0]

Some things to remember about the early rounds of good blind structured tournament poker: successful tournament players generally avoid risking their entire stack on draws during this time; weak players hope to catch enough cards on all-in calls to double, triple, quadruple up so they can sit back and wait for a big PF hand when the blinds are higher; and, if this is an online tournament, the weak player syndrome is ten fold.In your particular case, it's hard to say whether or not you played it optimally without knowing things like: 1. How big were your stacks relative to the blind?2. How big were the stacks of the drawing players relative to you?3. Do you consider them strong players?4. Are you a strong player?5. Is the Mushu im-poster really a delusional drag queen?I think if the stack sizes of each of you in the pot were relatively equal and the blinds were about 5% of those stacks then it's justifiable to bet about 1/2 - 2/3 of the pot on the flop. If someone goes all-in over the top then fold if you think you are the better player. You'll protect your stack and still have opportunities later to bash their skulls in. However, if they just call, then you can use that opportunity to punish them on the turn if no third suit card falls. Their flush draw is only about 18% then, so your move-in price is much better.Just my analysis, that's all. Take it or leave it. Or, better yet, offer differing views.-CaptDrew

[TheIceman05 0]

Drew:I just can't agree with folding when you're likely a 3-1 favorite. If you've got 2-2 and your opponent has A-9s and the flop comes down2s 5s KdYour opponent will only draw out on you about 25% of the time. I don't know if anyone's really good enough to require better odds than that. No matter how skilled you are, you're not going to put yourself in many better situations here, are you?Come on, now...Ice

[dpianomn 0]

i like what matt said about overbetting the pot.i have recently begun doing this with strong hands (like a set) and it has worked wonderfully. in this case when you have a set and you believe someone else is on a draw, if they are good enough to consider pot odds in their decision, they will lay down because you've overbet and it's no longer profitable for them to draw. the other advantage is that if they do call and miss you're taking down a huge pot.another advantage is often someone with a hand like Ax (no flush draw) will see this as an attempt to buy the pot and commit himself to it with a lesser hand. there have been way too many times i've been able to hit my draw because people bet too little with the best hand on the flop--not that i'm complaining 8)

[CaptDrew 0]

Ice,I agree with you to an extent. If this were a cash game, then he definitely has the best of it by getting his money in as a 3-1 favorite. However, we're talking about a tournament. When I'm in a tournament, I try to keep in mind the fundamental rule of tournament poker: when their broke, their done; when I'm broke, I'm done.(Sklansky) That's the driving theme of my post. And why I don't mind folding a 3-1 favorite early in a tournament. I'm confident enough in my ability that I'll make that money back later.In that vane, I offered a play that allows ben to charge his opponents for their draw, while still offering some protection against going broke. Plus, if they do go over the top, he could be realistically looking at a set of A's from the other seat. Then what? He's only got one out. Flush draws will most likely call, looking to see the turn. When that happens and they don't hit, the odds are much worse for them to draw out. Personally, I'd much rather have my money in as an 80% rather than 65% favorite.

If you've got 2-2 and your opponent has A-9s and the flop comes down2s 5s KdYour opponent will only draw out on you about 25% of the time.

Actually it's 35% with two cards to come. Plus in your example, you'd have the bottom set and when faced with an all-in from another seat, bottom set isn't that strong.I do appreciate your contrary point of view, however. It leads to learning. Can you offer a better play for ben in this instance?-CaptDrew

[CaptDrew 0]

Protecting your hand by overbetting the pot is a strong play. Unless by overbetting you are committing all your chips to the pot anyway. Then it just looks like a weak raise. Stack size relative to the pot is an important consideration in this case. Unfortunately, we don't have that information from ben's post.Otherwise, make them pay through the nose for their flush.-CaptDrew

[benhoug 0]

In the above example it was very, very early on in a MTT. Stacks started at 1500 and the blinds were 10 and 20. I had already been mixed up in a few pots, and after raising 3X BB to 60 I had probably 1200 or 1300 left. I guess it was a stupid play to risk that much for so little. In hindsight I was probably steaming a bit from an earlier play, but I told myself that if I flopped a set I was not going to give up on this hand, and by moving in on the flop I was definitely NOT GIVING UP ON THE HAND.

[TheIceman05 0]

If you've got 2-2 and your opponent has A-9s and the flop comes down2s 5s KdYour opponent will only draw out on you about 25% of the time.

Actually it's 35% with two cards to come. Plus in your example, you'd have the bottom set and when faced with an all-in from another seat, bottom set isn't that strong.I do appreciate your contrary point of view, however. It leads to learning. Can you offer a better play for ben in this instance?-CaptDrew

A few things:1) Sorry it took me so long to get back. I'm watching 24 nonstop. I am Jack Bauer. Sorry.2) Your math's wrong. Mine is right. They'll make the flush 35% of the time, but 10% of the time I'll redraw to a better hand. Keep in mind I've got 7 outs to fill up on the turn, and 10 to fill up on the river. So... watch the math there. Go to cardplayer.com and use the odds calculator if you don't believe me. I haven't done the EXACT crunching, but I gotta be within a few percent. 3) Even in a tournament, only the best best best BEST players can afford to be too good to get their money in when they're "only" a 3-1 favorite. I like avoiding coinflips as much as the next guy, but this is a little much. If you don't build a stack at SOME point, how're you ever going to build one? Set-over-set is a hand even top-professionals can't get away from. And I don't know anyone (EVEN PHIL HELLMUTH!) who'd shake a stick at a 3-1 return on their investmen, at ANY time. If you were at my table and I had any inkling you were unwilling to take the best of it with 3-1 odds, I'd make you make a stand sooner or later4) Yeah, if they're done, they're done... and if I'm done, I'm done. But you know what? If you have a lot of chips and double through someone, especially if you've already got a solid sized stack, then you've got a much greater chance to finish in the top-3 or win, which is where all the money is. Even in a tournament, this is still a mega-positive EV play. 5) Gonna hit this back up? I'd like to debate some more. Thanks for the reply....Iceman

[TheIceman05 0]

In the above example it was very, very early on in a MTT. Stacks started at 1500 and the blinds were 10 and 20. I had already been mixed up in a few pots, and after raising 3X BB to 60 I had probably 1200 or 1300 left. I guess it was a stupid play to risk that much for so little. In hindsight I was probably steaming a bit from an earlier play, but I told myself that if I flopped a set I was not going to give up on this hand, and by moving in on the flop I was definitely NOT GIVING UP ON THE HAND.

Even so, his call was much worse than your all in. Hands down. I still like extracting some value on the flop, then moving in on the turn where he's much more likely to give it up. Anyway, it's a play many people don't think about, but a useful one to have in your repetoire.Ice